Interesting Early Season Comparison

[*ochocincos*]

(10-06-2021, 04:17 PM)bengalguy71 Wrote: If 'ifs' and 'ands' were pots and pans the world would be a kitchen! 

My whole point to the OP was to make the concession, after hindsight, that I don't think either pick would have been a mistake, as Zac was looking hard at Herbert, because they are close and similar in many ways and seem to be probable leaders and franchise QBs.

But, just like Big Papa says, too many in here turn it in to a 'my dad is better than your dad', it just so happens BPK gets quite stressed and irritated by it!

Sorry BPK, just keeping it real!

I'm not sure if Herbert would be the same player if he was a Bengal.
Chargers have done very well with him.
Even if Herbert ends up being the better QB down the road, I think Burrow will be a very good QB and was the safer pick.
The Bengals needed safe picks given how bad they've been the past 3-5 years.

[Murdock2420]

(10-06-2021, 04:23 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Yep. They're both good. I was just pointing out how funny it is that ESPN has him 19th, when passer rating and PFF have him top 10. Plus, passer rating and PFF have Burrow and Herbert being similar while QBR has them pretty far apart.

This board needs a gauge on the homepage so we know if PFF is being viewed as viable information this week or not.

It gets confusing.

[bengalguy71]

(10-06-2021, 04:30 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I'm not sure if Herbert would be the same player if he was a Bengal.
Chargers have done very well with him.
Even if Herbert ends up being the better QB down the road, I think Burrow will be a very good QB and was the safer pick.
The Bengals needed safe picks given how bad they've been the past 3-5 years.

I like this post because it specifically addresses the OP.

You disagree and think Burrow was the better fit for this franchise.  That's your opinion and I respect it.

I disagree with your uncertainty on whether JH would have been the same player as a Bengal, and the ONLY reason I say that is because, being retired, I have recently spent a lot of time on the Chargers' website just trying to get to know this kid and their franchise, and I see a lot of similarities from the coaches to the players as far as attitudes and goals are concerned.

(I knew absolutely nothing about JH outside of the fact he was being looked at in the 2020 draft.  I had never seen any film of him at all.)

If you're inclined, I would like to hear why you question his role as a Bengals, opposed to a Charger, not to debate, but to find out maybe you have seen something I missed. 

[bengalguy71]

(10-06-2021, 04:23 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Yep. They're both good. I was just pointing out how funny it is that ESPN has him 19th, when passer rating and PFF have him top 10. Plus, passer rating and PFF have Burrow and Herbert being similar while QBR has them pretty far apart.

Good post and thanks for sharing your opinion from the OP! 

[*ochocincos*]

(10-06-2021, 04:42 PM)bengalguy71 Wrote: I like this post because it specifically addresses the OP.

You disagree and think Burrow was the better fit for this franchise.  That's your opinion and I respect it.

I disagree with your uncertainty on whether JH would have been the same player as a Bengal, and the ONLY reason I say that is because, being retired, I have recently spent a lot of time on the Chargers' website just trying to get to know this kid and their franchise, and I see a lot of similarities from the coaches to the players as far as attitudes and goals are concerned.

(I knew absolutely nothing about JH outside of the fact he was being looked at in the 2020 draft.  I had never seen any film of him at all.)

If you're inclined, I would like to hear why you question his role as a Bengals, opposed to a Charger, not to debate, but to find out maybe you have seen something I missed. 

The concerns with Herbert:
- His quiet demeanor and general lack of leadership
- Coming from Oregon's spread offense. Would he be able to translate to the NFL pro-style offense well?
- Had some challenges handling pressure in the pocket

Herbert was arguably the most physically gifted QB prospect in the class though, so if a team could the above working, he could be great.

I didn't have confidence the Bengals had good enough coaches to turn a QB with questions into a good player. I felt they needed the safe guy who was NFL-ready. I felt Burrow was the most NFL-ready QB in that draft.

[*rfaulk34*]

(10-06-2021, 04:39 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: This board needs a gauge on the homepage so we know if PFF is being viewed as viable information this week or not.

It gets confusing.

Something like a stop light you see at intersections? Green light for acceptable and red light for no, right on the front page above the tweets. 

I like it!!

[Murdock2420]

(10-06-2021, 04:52 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Something like a stop light you see at intersections? Green light for acceptable and red light for no, right on the front page above the tweets. 

I like it!!

Exactly!

That would be perfect, need to get Holic to add that

[*rfaulk34*]

(10-06-2021, 04:42 PM)bengalguy71 Wrote: I like this post because it specifically addresses the OP.

You disagree and think Burrow was the better fit for this franchise.  That's your opinion and I respect it.

I disagree with your uncertainty on whether JH would have been the same player as a Bengal, and the ONLY reason I say that is because, being retired, I have recently spent a lot of time on the Chargers' website just trying to get to know this kid and their franchise, and I see a lot of similarities from the coaches to the players as far as attitudes and goals are concerned.

(I knew absolutely nothing about JH outside of the fact he was being looked at in the 2020 draft.  I had never seen any film of him at all.)

If you're inclined, I would like to hear why you question his role as a Bengals, opposed to a Charger, not to debate, but to find out maybe you have seen something I missed. 

Based on raw stats; passing depth and success, Burrow is head and shoulders better than Herbert in the intermediate passing game (10-19) yards. Herbert's bread and butter is the big play, where he excels. That would make Burrow a better QB for the Bengals due to offensive scheme.

[bengalguy71]

(10-06-2021, 04:48 PM)ochocincos Wrote: The concerns with Herbert:
- His quiet demeanor and general lack of leadership
- Coming from Oregon's spread offense. Would he be able to translate to the NFL pro-style offense well?
- Had some challenges handling pressure in the pocket

Herbert was arguably the most physically gifted QB prospect in the class though, so if a team could the above working, he could be great.

I didn't have confidence the Bengals had good enough coaches to turn a QB with questions into a good player. I felt they needed the safe guy who was NFL-ready. I felt Burrow was the most NFL-ready QB in that draft.

From the film I've been able to digest and videos and articles on their website, Burrow 'might' be a 'little' more of an extrovert, but from what I can tell, I don't see a 'big' difference in that to MAKE a difference, and I think he is a leader, that's all based upon this year, because I didn't watch him in college or last year whatsoever.

I'm not knowledgeable enough to get deep into offense styles and stuff, but I do know that in the Burrow/Boomer sit down, Boomer asked him if there were similarities to what the Bengals run opposed to LSU, and he commented on the similarities of the spread offense, again, will concede to that because I don't get that deep.

You talk about a safe pick with Burrow and that is probably spot on, as I have said, my observation was hindsight, after seeing where they line up after 4 games this year.

Kind of one of those, as it turned out, it would have been a win with either pick.

[bengalguy71]

(10-06-2021, 04:55 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Based on raw stats; passing depth and success, Burrow is head and shoulders better than Herbert in the intermediate passing game (10-19) yards. Herbert's bread and butter is the big play, where he excels. That would make Burrow a better QB for the Bengals due to offensive scheme.

From the film I've watched. which is limited to the website and YouTube, I don't believe Burrow's intermediate game is 'Head and Shoulders' better, but again that's based on limited film and outside of watching whole games, I don't know where else to go to find more than that, to make a sound determination.

[BigPapaKain]

(10-06-2021, 04:17 PM)bengalguy71 Wrote: If 'ifs' and 'ands' were pots and pans the world would be a kitchen! 

My whole point to the OP was to make the concession, after hindsight, that I don't think either pick would have been a mistake, as Zac was looking hard at Herbert, because they are close and similar in many ways and seem to be probable leaders and franchise QBs.

But, just like Big Papa says, too many in here turn it in to a 'my dad is better than your dad', it just so happens BPK gets quite stressed and irritated by it!

Sorry BPK, just keeping it real!

You wanna put my name in your inane posts, put some respect on it.

Swoon over the QB in LA to your little heart's content. I don't play the idiotic what if game. I play what is. Burrow is our QB. That's the end all be all.

[*rfaulk34*]

(10-06-2021, 05:35 PM)bengalguy71 Wrote: From the film I've watched. which is limited to the website and YouTube, I don't believe Burrow's intermediate game is 'Head and Shoulders' better, but again that's based on limited film and outside of watching whole games, I don't know where else to go to find more than that, to make a sound determination.

Here are the breakdowns for each guy, by depth of pass.

Herbert:
Deep (20+) 46.2%, 169 yds, 13 ypa, 1 td, 0 int, 118.3 rating, 94.1 grade
Inter(10-19) 56.4%, 398 yds, 10.2 ypa, 3 td, 3 int, 85.2 rating, 67.7 grade
Short (0-9) 82.7%, 542 yds, 6.7 ypa, 5 td, 0 int, 115.1 rating, 90.8 grade
behind LoS, 94.7%, 69 yds, 3.6 ypa, 0 td, 0 int, 81.8 rating, 68.7 grade

Burrow:
Deep (20+) 41.7 %, 195 yds, 16.3 ypa, 3 td, 0 int, 128.5 rating, 90.7 grade
Inter(10-19) 84.2 %, 288 yds, 15.2 ypa, 2 td, 2 int, 114.3 rating, 92.6 grade
Short (0-9) 76.7 %, 457 yds, 7.6 ypa, 4 td, 2 int, 106.0 rating, 68.3 grade
behind LoS, 84.6 %, 48 yds, 3.7 ypa, 0 td, 0 int, 82.1 rating, 63.1 rating

[bengalguy71]

(10-06-2021, 09:03 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Here are the breakdowns for each guy, by depth of pass.

Herbert:
Deep (20+) 46.2%, 169 yds, 13 ypa, 1 td, 0 int, 118.3 rating, 94.1 grade
Inter(10-19) 56.4%, 398 yds, 10.2 ypa, 3 td, 3 int, 85.2 rating, 67.7 grade
Short (0-9) 82.7%, 542 yds, 6.7 ypa, 5 td, 0 int, 115.1 rating, 90.8 grade
behind LoS, 94.7%, 69 yds, 3.6 ypa, 0 td, 0 int, 81.8 rating, 68.7 grade

Burrow:
Deep (20+) 41.7 %, 195 yds, 16.3 ypa, 3 td, 0 int, 128.5 rating, 90.7 grade
Inter(10-19) 84.2 %, 288 yds, 15.2 ypa, 2 td, 2 int, 114.3 rating, 92.6 grade
Short (0-9) 76.7 %, 457 yds, 7.6 ypa, 4 td, 2 int, 106.0 rating, 68.3 grade
behind LoS, 84.6 %, 48 yds, 3.7 ypa, 0 td, 0 int, 82.1 rating, 63.1 rating

Assuming these are for the 4 games this year.

The grade difference definitely supports a 30% difference in favor of Burrow on the intermediate passes, but it washed out with a 30% difference in favor of Herbert on the short pass.

Everything else is pretty close, which doesn't change my  opinion that either choice would have been a good one, and I also agree with what you, at least I think it was you, said about the Bengals making the 'safe' pick!

[Boomer Anderson]

Taking a brief break from Herbert vs Burrow. I just read a good SI article in which Frank Pollack compares Joey Franchise to his old teammate Joe Montana. I really like that comparison. Says he has the same confidence, swagger, leadership and lives football like Montana did. Pretty awesome comparison from a dude connected with both Joes.

Herbert is a stud. But I’ll take Joey Franchise.

[bengalguy71]

(10-06-2021, 10:05 PM)Boomer Anderson Wrote: Taking a brief break from Herbert vs Burrow. I just read a good SI article in which Frank Pollack compares Joey Franchise to his old teammate Joe Montana. I really like that comparison. Says he has the same confidence, swagger, leadership and lives football like Montana did. Pretty awesome comparison from a dude connected with both Joes.

Herbert is a stud. But I’ll take Joey Franchise.

I am personally glad they decided on Joe as well.

But, I bet you if they hadn't gone with Joe, this place would have come unglued!

Either pick, I just sit back and see what happens!

[Nicomo Cosca]

(10-06-2021, 10:05 PM)Boomer Anderson Wrote: Taking a brief break from Herbert vs Burrow. I just read a good SI article in which Frank Pollack compares Joey Franchise to his old teammate Joe Montana. I really like that comparison. Says he has the same confidence, swagger, leadership and lives football like Montana did. Pretty awesome comparison from a dude connected with both Joes.

Herbert is a stud. But I’ll take Joey Franchise.

Joel Klatt made that same comparison when Burrow was coming out of college. So hearing that from someone who played with Montana doesn’t surprise me.

[*jason*]

(10-06-2021, 10:41 PM)bengalguy71 Wrote: Can you imagine if MB had picked this guy ESPECIALLY with him turning into, what appears to be the Tyler Eifert of QBs?

The fan base would have actually rioted!!

He was the Tyler Eifert of QBs coming out. Herbert's the shit too, but if they'd had selected him over Burrow, the fans would've rioted too. I remember the collective groan around here when it was reported that Zac liked Herbert. Turns out he was right though. I personally don't trust players from Oregon. One of the reasons I wanted Ja'Marr or Pitts over Sewell. Turns out I was right and wrong on that one.

[bengalguy71]

Here is some huge kudos to Joe that I heard Boomer bring up in the sit down the 2 of them had.

Joe does NOT wear the 'playbook wristbands' and Boomer gave him kudos for that and now I know why.

I started looking at film on some QBs and, even though I only looked at a few QBs, I'd be willing to bet MOST of them WEAR the playbook wristband INCLUDING Tom Brady!!!

Wow! Well done Mr Burrow!!!!

[bengalguy71]

(10-06-2021, 11:06 PM)jason Wrote: He was the Tyler Eifert of QBs coming out. Herbert's the shit too, but if they'd had selected him over Burrow, the fans would've rioted too. I remember the collective groan around here when it was reported that Zac liked Herbert. Turns out he was right though. I personally don't trust players from Oregon. One of the reasons I wanted Ja'Marr or Pitts over Sewell. Turns out I was right and wrong on that one.

Well said Jason and that was my hindsight thought too!  Yes, the Bengals made the safe pick and ended up being a great pick.

I just believe that Herbert would have turned out to be a great pick too, but we didn't know this until after the fact and we know hindsight is 20/20! 

[*SHRacerX*]

(10-02-2021, 07:39 PM)bengalguy71 Wrote: Burrow - Yards 640, Completion # 70.7, TDs 7, Picks 4

Herbert - Yards 956, Completion # 69.8, TDs 6, Picks 3

I don't think the Bengals could have gone wrong with EITHER pick.

Herbert surprised me as what I saw of him at Oregon, especially in some big games, was really bad.  But now I think that coaching staff had a dumb scheme around him and he could have handled a lot more.  He supposedly has 4 degrees and is really cerebral.

I like Herbert a lot based on what I have seen, but I think Joe was the right guy for this team to help build a culture.  Either way, as you said, they both will likely have a lot of success. 

I don't have that optimism with Lawrence.  Aside from being a phenomenal athlete, he doesn't seen to read defenses as well nor have near the accuracy of the other two.