If Zac Taylor doesn't evolve, Joe Burrow and the Bengals' 2021 season is already over

[fredtoast]

(10-12-2021, 11:01 PM)thompson19osu Wrote: He has great size and is pretty athletic. Only reason people don’t realize he is a true starting TE in this league is because we don’t utilize TEs very often, but we see what csn be done when we do utilize.

His best yardage season was a year when we threw for less than 3300 yards with Driskel/Dalton.

[TheFan]

(10-12-2021, 11:28 PM)fredtoast Wrote: His best yardage season was a year when we threw for less than 3300 yards with Driskel/Dalton.

So wouldn't that indicate scheme and usage vs ability? He saw as many targets in 2018 (the year you're talking about) as he has the 3 years Taylor has been HC. Obviously he missed a lot of time last year but I think the point can mostly remain the same. 

In 2018 we also had Eifert as the primary receiving tight end for the first quarter of the season. Who saw 19 targets in 3.5 games.

[Whatever]

(10-12-2021, 11:21 PM)northernbengal Wrote: This team does not have crap talent, if you think that you are silly. The IOL is not great but is workable. And you would use gap scheme so that IOL(Except the puller if there is one) can down block. You could also move the pocket and run screens to help out the IOL. The product on the field is a mix of scheme, execution, and talent. If you do not think scheme can elevate players or have a large impact you haven't watched the Rams and Patriots Superbowl. 

Also from a teambuilding perspective we do not need a tight end. You only need 3 offensive weapons and we look like we have 4. 

Who are the 4 offensive weapons?

Chase, obviously.

Mixon is good, if healthy, but rarely is anymore.

Boyd is a good slot/possession guy, but only 1 TD to 4 Int's on 35 targets this year.

Higgins has struggled outside the red zone this year and isn't even Top 100 in yards/target.  Folks had high hopes on him developing into a WR1 or 1b, but he hasn't shown it this year.  

You look at Tampa, they have Godwin, Evans, AB, Gronk, and Fornette.  Plus their depth guys are guys like Ronald Jones, OJ Howard, and Tyler Johnson.

Or Zac is a McVay disciple.  McVay had Cooks, Kupp, Woods, and the best RB in the game in Gurley when he went to the SB.  He currently has 4 WR's with 200+ receiving yards with Kupp, Woods, Van Jefferson, and DeSean Jackson.  We have 2.  

You can get by with 3 weapons if 2 of them are elite, not guys like Boyd who had a couple of seasons where he barely got 1000 yards because there was nothing around him and they force fed him targets.  

This past week is a perfect example.  We have nobody currently like Devonta Adams who can just go out there and take a game over.  Chase could very well become that guy, but it's very early to annoit him that.

Not to mention Trey Hopkins has been abysmal this year.

[Frank Booth]

(10-13-2021, 01:22 AM)Whatever Wrote: Who are the 4 offensive weapons?

Chase, obviously.

Mixon is good, if healthy, but rarely is anymore.

Boyd is a good slot/possession guy, but only 1 TD to 4 Int's on 35 targets this year.

Higgins has struggled outside the red zone this year and isn't even Top 100 in yards/target.  Folks had high hopes on him developing into a WR1 or 1b, but he hasn't shown it this year.  

You look at Tampa, they have Godwin, Evans, AB, Gronk, and Fornette.  Plus their depth guys are guys like Ronald Jones, OJ Howard, and Tyler Johnson.

Or Zac is a McVay disciple.  McVay had Cooks, Kupp, Woods, and the best RB in the game in Gurley when he went to the SB.  He currently has 4 WR's with 200+ receiving yards with Kupp, Woods, Van Jefferson, and DeSean Jackson.  We have 2.  

You can get by with 3 weapons if 2 of them are elite, not guys like Boyd who had a couple of seasons where he barely got 1000 yards because there was nothing around him and they force fed him targets.  

This past week is a perfect example.  We have nobody currently like Devonta Adams who can just go out there and take a game over.  Chase could very well become that guy, but it's very early to annoit him that.

Not to mention Trey Hopkins has been abysmal this year.

You’re ragging on Higgins who missed 2 games this season. Take it easy.

Mixon, Chase, Boyd, Higgins. 4 very good to great weapons

Hopkins and Jackson Carmen are the 2 guys really hurting the offense right now

[fredtoast]

(10-13-2021, 01:22 AM)Whatever Wrote: Who are the 4 offensive weapons?

Chase, obviously.

Mixon is good, if healthy, but rarely is anymore.

Boyd is a good slot/possession guy, but only 1 TD to 4 Int's on 35 targets this year.

Higgins has struggled outside the red zone this year and isn't even Top 100 in yards/target.  Folks had high hopes on him developing into a WR1 or 1b, but he hasn't shown it this year.  

You look at Tampa, they have Godwin, Evans, AB, Gronk, and Fornette.  Plus their depth guys are guys like Ronald Jones, OJ Howard, and Tyler Johnson.

Or Zac is a McVay disciple.  McVay had Cooks, Kupp, Woods, and the best RB in the game in Gurley when he went to the SB.  He currently has 4 WR's with 200+ receiving yards with Kupp, Woods, Van Jefferson, and DeSean Jackson.  We have 2.  

You can get by with 3 weapons if 2 of them are elite, not guys like Boyd who had a couple of seasons where he barely got 1000 yards because there was nothing around him and they force fed him targets.  

This past week is a perfect example.  We have nobody currently like Devonta Adams who can just go out there and take a game over.  Chase could very well become that guy, but it's very early to annoit him that.

Not to mention Trey Hopkins has been abysmal this year.

Your logic fails.  

You can't say we have to judge Boyd and Higgins just based on 2021 alone and at the same time say we can't judge Chase based on 2021 alone. You are "anointing" Van Jefferson as a "weapon" for the Rams and refusing to do the same for Chase despite the fact that Chase has more career receiving yards and tds than Jefferson.

You can't say that Mixon being #5 in the league in rushing does not count because he has been injured in the past and at the same time say Fournette and DeSean Jackson are "weapons" for the Bucs when they have worse injury histories than Joe.

[*SHRacerX*]

(10-12-2021, 11:54 AM)J24 Wrote: The biggest problem with the offense is personal. We don't have a TE that can stretch the defense.and.were not particularly good in IOL department either.

Take away the big plays of Chase and this offense has been downright abysmal.  A single TE wouldn't be able to win that quickly.  Not even Kyle Pitts.  

The design, as the article clearly illustrates, is meh, the efficiency is blah, and the situational play-calling (I will add this one) is just icing on the proverbial shit cake.

It is so sad to watch this defense be so strong only to watch this offense be so lethargic.  

We can't keep saying "if they ever get going".  The design must change.  They simply can't execute what they are trying to do.  Teams are too dialed in to their weak rushing design and the Bengals are rightfully trying to avoid having Burrow throw the ball 55 times a game.  

[northernbengal]

(10-13-2021, 01:22 AM)Whatever Wrote: Who are the 4 offensive weapons?

Chase, obviously.

Mixon is good, if healthy, but rarely is anymore.

Boyd is a good slot/possession guy, but only 1 TD to 4 Int's on 35 targets this year.

Higgins has struggled outside the red zone this year and isn't even Top 100 in yards/target.  Folks had high hopes on him developing into a WR1 or 1b, but he hasn't shown it this year.  

You look at Tampa, they have Godwin, Evans, AB, Gronk, and Fornette.  Plus their depth guys are guys like Ronald Jones, OJ Howard, and Tyler Johnson.

Or Zac is a McVay disciple.  McVay had Cooks, Kupp, Woods, and the best RB in the game in Gurley when he went to the SB.  He currently has 4 WR's with 200+ receiving yards with Kupp, Woods, Van Jefferson, and DeSean Jackson.  We have 2.  

You can get by with 3 weapons if 2 of them are elite, not guys like Boyd who had a couple of seasons where he barely got 1000 yards because there was nothing around him and they force fed him targets.  

This past week is a perfect example.  We have nobody currently like Devonta Adams who can just go out there and take a game over.  Chase could very well become that guy, but it's very early to annoit him that.

Not to mention Trey Hopkins has been abysmal this year.

I will admit they have not looked the best so far aside from Chase who is well on his way to being that kind of player, he has been the majority of the scoring offense and explosive plays this year. Alot of his big plays fades vs press isolated on the outside or outside of structure which shows the scheme is struggling to generate those . However, Higgins played well last year and I believe he should be able to replicate that. Boyd can definitely be a weapon, hell Edelman was out of the slot(Without him the Patriots had a worse record than without Brady). The biggest issue with Boyd is Burrow forcing the ball to him and them being too predictable with route concepts(Running alot of choice routes/juke routes without a counter off of them. The Packers had the same issue vs the saints. ). Mixon has played very well this year although I think his touche rate is catching up to him. Evans could also be a depth piece. They could be missing another deep threat but how many do you need?
The issue here is just a lack of schematic advantage and creativity. The numbers display they are incredibly predictable and that matches the  eye test. Hell look at how good the panthers have been with Darnold at QB and CMC injured. Do you think Robby Anderson, DJ Moore, and Terrance Marshall are better than our top 3? Is Chuba Hubbard better than Mixon? Obviously not, the issue is a lack of schematic threat. 

[QueenCity]

Well that article was depressing... but so am I since Sunday.

[2MinutesHate]

I'm not sure what the media expects out of Taylor is even possible. His football mind is what it is. 37 games in so far and I think what we've seen is what we're going to get. Taylor trying to change things up may not even work. I doubt he even realizes his own limitations as a playcaller.

Just because you crunch for 2 weeks for the Calculus exam doesn't mean you'll pass it when you've only taken Algebra.

[Whatever]

(10-13-2021, 02:37 AM)Frank Booth Wrote: You’re ragging on Higgins who missed 2 games this season. Take it easy.

Mixon, Chase, Boyd, Higgins. 4 very good to great weapons

Hopkins and Jackson Carmen are the 2 guys really hurting the offense right now

Hopkins and Carman are the weakest links, no doubt.  Hopkins has me wishing for the Bodine days right now.  

That said, Higgins has been plagued by drops and fumbles in the games he has played.  It's kind of funny how everyone was up in arms about Chase's preseason drops, but we're defending Higgins who was 5th in the league in drops last year and has picked up right where he left off this year.

Boyd is a solid possession guy in the slot, but he's been overrated for years by virtue of being one of the best players on bad teams.  He's what you get when you order Hines Ward on Wish com.

Mixon is arguably borderline that second elite piece, but can't stay healthy and at his age and wear and tear, there's no reason to think he will be able to in the near future.

[fredtoast]

(10-13-2021, 12:58 PM)Whatever Wrote: That said, Higgins has been plagued by drops and fumbles in the games he has played.  It's kind of funny how everyone was up in arms about Chase's preseason drops, but we're defending Higgins who was 5th in the league in drops last year and has picked up right where he left off this year.

Higgins only had one fumble last year and Footballoutsiders had him at #14 in drops with 7.  Not even close to the top 20 in drop percentage for WRs.

Kind of silly to try and claim a guy with one fumble was "plagued" by them.

[fredtoast]

(10-13-2021, 12:58 PM)Whatever Wrote: Boyd is a solid possession guy in the slot, but he's been overrated for years by virtue of being one of the best players on bad teams.  He's what you get when you order Hines Ward on Wish com.

You can't bash an individual player just because he played on a bad team.

Since 2018 only 2 receivers in the league (Keenan Allen, DeVontae Adams) have converted more 3rd/4th downs that Boyd.  He is an elite possession receiver when it comes to moving the chains.  

His catch percentage since 2018 ranks 23rd out of the 75 WRs with at least 100 receptions.  He also ranks 9th in overall receptions and 18th in yards.

Doesn't matter how bad the team was Boyd has been an excellent possession receiver.   

[*ochocincos*]

(10-13-2021, 01:22 AM)Whatever Wrote: Who are the 4 offensive weapons?

Chase, obviously.

Mixon is good, if healthy, but rarely is anymore.

Boyd is a good slot/possession guy, but only 1 TD to 4 Int's on 35 targets this year.

Higgins has struggled outside the red zone this year and isn't even Top 100 in yards/target.  Folks had high hopes on him developing into a WR1 or 1b, but he hasn't shown it this year.  

You look at Tampa, they have Godwin, Evans, AB, Gronk, and Fornette.  Plus their depth guys are guys like Ronald Jones, OJ Howard, and Tyler Johnson.

Or Zac is a McVay disciple.  McVay had Cooks, Kupp, Woods, and the best RB in the game in Gurley when he went to the SB.  He currently has 4 WR's with 200+ receiving yards with Kupp, Woods, Van Jefferson, and DeSean Jackson.  We have 2.  

You can get by with 3 weapons if 2 of them are elite, not guys like Boyd who had a couple of seasons where he barely got 1000 yards because there was nothing around him and they force fed him targets.  

This past week is a perfect example.  We have nobody currently like Devonta Adams who can just go out there and take a game over.  Chase could very well become that guy, but it's very early to annoit him that.

Not to mention Trey Hopkins has been abysmal this year.

So...CJ Uzomah is in his final season with the Bengals.
OJ Howard happens to be in his final season with the Bucs and is playing second fiddle to Gronk (who wouldn't?).
I LOVED Howard coming out of college.
I thought he could have been a perfect Eifert replacement.
I know he's been plagued by some injuries in the past, but I'd be all for the Bengals going after him as the new starting TE over Uzomah.
I just think Howard has more potential.

[BengalChris]

(10-12-2021, 11:17 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: This is spot on:

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-cincinnati-bengals-joe-burrow-offense-zac-taylor-2021

Yeah, my feelings exactly except PFF is more wordy about how they're saying it. It was a relief to read actually. While I was happy to see the win over Pittsburgh, the scoreless first half against the Jags was clearly a warning that things are not all that well.

Mixon, for whatever reason, just isn't the runner I've envisioned him becoming. I liked the way Jacques Patrick ran the ball during pre-season, but I guess the coaches didn't. Patrick is one of those runners that always seems to be going forward and that's pretty much the point of a RB I'd say.

Taylor has a love affair with 11 personnel and it really doesn't matter what the stats say, he's going to stick with it until death do they part. Something that is overdue in my opinion.

 

[BengalChris]

(10-13-2021, 12:58 PM)Whatever Wrote: Hopkins and Carman are the weakest links, no doubt.  Hopkins has me wishing for the Bodine days right now.  

That said, Higgins has been plagued by drops and fumbles in the games he has played.  It's kind of funny how everyone was up in arms about Chase's preseason drops, but we're defending Higgins who was 5th in the league in drops last year and has picked up right where he left off this year.

Boyd is a solid possession guy in the slot, but he's been overrated for years by virtue of being one of the best players on bad teams.  He's what you get when you order Hines Ward on Wish com.

Mixon is arguably borderline that second elite piece, but can't stay healthy and at his age and wear and tear, there's no reason to think he will be able to in the near future.

Higgin has 2 drops and 1 fumble all year. That's hardly being plagued. The drops were on key targets though, which I'm sure is what you noticed. Chase had 3 drops in a single game during pre-season, so I wouldn't worry about Higgins being a key receiver for Burrow going forward.

 

[*psychdoctor*]

My Main issue with ZT and his calling of O Plays is this: what is the team's identity? Also, he seems to be cautious to the point that the offensive plays are tentative, small play potential. It gives me as a fan the sense that he coaches scared.

[Whatever]

(10-13-2021, 01:11 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Higgins only had one fumble last year and Footballoutsiders had him at #14 in drops with 7.  Not even close to the top 20 in drop percentage for WRs.

Kind of silly to try and claim a guy with one fumble was "plagued" by them.

ProFootball Reference had him tied for 5th with 8 drops and 20th in drop %.

[TJ528]

(10-12-2021, 07:56 PM)Bengalstripes9 Wrote: Uzo is solid. No need to replace him. The play calling and oline need to improve. It’s as simple as that.

If Zac has close to a winning season, I doubt he gets canned. Best we can do is hope he learns from his mistakes and figures things out (I know, depressing). Maybe he can figure things out though. I’d feel more confident in a proven legit OC, but it is what it is.

My biggest fear is we get back to being a decent team, and our mediocre coach holds us back from being a great team. We waste a few years of Zac trying to learn how to coach and by that time it starts falling apart. Maybe he can learn quicker and become a good coach. Seems like the only scenario we can hope for as I don’t see him going anywhere.

It's sad as a fan base we have to think this way.  Hope he learns his lesson and figures things out. 

If he hasn't figure things out 3 years into being the Browns/Duke/Katie pet project then he needs to just be the head football coach and give up play calling duties which he's' failed at every stop in college or NFL football. 

I think we have it figured out on the defensive side of the ball going into the hardest part of our schedule.  We need our offense to start making some hay before we get deeper into this schedule.  I'm just not confident Zac and Brian can scheme up an effective enough offensive attack. 

[impactplaya]

Zac seems to be rather arrogant and full of himself
Regarding his playcalling and schematics.
He can talk about culture change all he wants
But IS HE WILLING.TO CHANGE
Its like everyone sees the issues with the lack
Of creativity and inability to be flexible but Zac.

[XenoMorph]

(10-13-2021, 04:00 PM)impactplaya Wrote: Zac seems to be rather arrogant and full of himself
Regarding his playcalling and schematics.
He can talk about culture change all he wants
But IS HE WILLING.TO CHANGE
Its like everyone sees the issues with the lack
Of creativity and inability to be flexible but Zac.

zach doesnt believe in mirrors so he cant see the issue   lol