Three years ago.

[Tony]

(11-11-2021, 01:14 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: So isn't it time to really start pointing the finger where it truly belongs?

It was Marvin's fault, or not spending in FA or the D Coordinator or the OC, or now Zac, or...

The team has been under performing, underwhelming or just flat out bad since 1991. There is only one consistent part to the team all those years, and it is the family that runs the show. The family that employs the smallest scouting department around, that just refuses to do things anyway besides their own and just never seems committed to placing a championship product on the field. 

We can blame bad drafts, or bad draft strategies, or bad coaching, or not signing the right guys but at the end all those roads lead right back to the Brown family and the lack of a real GM.

Not a shot at you Shake or anyone and yes I know we all have blamed the Brown family before but then the draft rolls around and we argue about how this QB fixes everything or the WR makes the team a Super Bowl team, or we get into the season and start saying the DC sucks or the coach sucks and it's like we forget the puppet master pulling the strings, cashing checks and laughing all the way to the bank.

It really does all come down to this... Since 1992 there has been one constant. That cheap ass Mike Brown... This really is one of the most dysfunctional franchises in sports....  That's the only explanation at this point...

[JaggedJimmyJay]

It's possible for a good coach to go 6-25-1 and a bad coach to go 16-16. The NFL introduces so much variation into any single game, let alone season, that these raw comparisons are just about meaningless. I would prefer more descriptive metrics than just "who won more games", though even those are close to impossible to do anything with. The implication here is that assessing NFL coaching is a fool's errand, but I frankly believe that's more often true than it isn't. I don't blame people or front offices for trying to do it, but I don't take it very seriously. There's too much contextual noise.

2002 Bengals were 18th in offense and 17th in defense (2-14, LeBeau)
2003 Bengals were 13th in offense and 28th in defense (8-8, Lewis)
2004 Bengals were 18th in offense and 19th in defense (8-8, Lewis)
2005 Bengals were 6th in offense and 28th in defense (11-5, Lewis)

2018 Bengals were 26th in offense and 32nd in defense (6-10, Lewis)
2019 Bengals were 26th in offense and 29th in defense (2-14, Taylor)
2020 Bengals were 29th in offense and 26th in defense (4-11-1, Taylor)
2021 Bengals are 14th in offense and 18th in defense (5-4, Taylor)

That may suggest Lewis inherited a better "talent" situation than Taylor, but also a team more cultured toward failure. Taylor inherited an underperforming team with a better culture. Follow the progression and it looks like Taylor's third year is similar to Marvin's second year, so he can be accused of moving slower. But that's also silly to judge before this season ends.

[fredtoast]

(11-12-2021, 04:47 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: The guys you use to beef up your list (like Geno and Dunlap) were either washed or mentally checked out.

Funny how Dunlap was not "washed up or mentally checked out" under winning coaches like Marvin and Pete Carroll.

He was productive when he played for a coach who knew how to coach.

[Shake n Blake]

(11-12-2021, 07:10 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Funny how Dunlap was not "washed up or mentally checked out" under winning coaches like Marvin and Pete Carroll.

He was productive when he played for a coach who knew how to coach.

You act like this isn't a typical problem when tenured vets are still around after a long-term coach gets the can. That's why teams often "clean house" and rebuild after that. This whole, Zac couldn't get anything out of Dunlap, Geno and AJ angle is silly when he's "getting" plenty out of their replacements.

Heck, Geno isn't even in the league now. Guess that's why you zeroed in on Dunlap.

[Destro]

(11-12-2021, 03:24 PM)TecmoBengals Wrote:

COBRRRRRRRAAAAAA!!!!!

[grampahol]

(11-09-2021, 04:02 PM)fredtoast Wrote: We were 5-4, and had 2 wins against playoff teams (Ravens, Colts).

And Sargent Pepper taught the band to play..

[fredtoast]

(11-12-2021, 07:53 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Heck, Geno isn't even in the league now. Guess that's why you zeroed in on Dunlap.

Atkins went to the Pro Bowl in '19.

[fredtoast]

(11-12-2021, 07:53 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: This whole, Zac couldn't get anything out of Dunlap, Geno and AJ angle is silly when he's "getting" plenty out of their replacements.

Yeah, it takes a really special coach to get production out of a $15 million a year free agent.

[Shake n Blake]

(11-13-2021, 01:34 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Atkins went to the Pro Bowl in '19.

...and did nothing in '20.

(11-13-2021, 01:37 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Yeah, it takes a really special coach to get production out of a $15 million a year free agent.

AJ, Dunlap and Atkins were also highly paid players?

[fredtoast]

(11-13-2021, 02:49 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: AJ, Dunlap and Atkins were also highly paid players?

And proof that Taylor sucks because he got nothing form them.

I don't even know what kind of point you are trying to make now.  I don't know any coach that gets absolutely nothing out of any high paid players, but when one coachs fails to get production from a few of them I think that makes the coach look bad.

[Shake n Blake]

(11-13-2021, 12:32 PM)fredtoast Wrote: And proof that Taylor sucks because he got nothing form them.

I don't even know what kind of point you are trying to make now.  I don't know any coach that gets absolutely nothing out of any high paid players, but when one coachs fails to get production from a few of them I think that makes the coach look bad.

...because they were either washed up (Geno) or checked out (AJ and Dunlap).

You're just playing dumb to win a debate, Fred. Regardless of how much a player is getting paid, if his body quits on him, he's done. If a player is done with an organization after years of losing, what can the coach do? Is he supposed to rah-rah him into compliance?

That sure didn't work on Corey Dillon or Takeo Spikes for Marv.

[NUGDUKWE]

(11-13-2021, 10:58 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: ...because they were either washed up (Geno) or checked out (AJ and Dunlap).

You're just playing dumb to win a debate, Fred. Regardless of how much a player is getting paid, if his body quits on him, he's done. If a player is done with an organization after years of losing, what can the coach do? Is he supposed to rah-rah him into compliance?

That sure didn't work on Corey Dillon or Takeo Spikes for Marv.

Geno was injured his last year and just getting older. AJ had what not played football for a year and a half and not the same player he was but I don't personally feel was used the best in 2020 but that's another debate. Now for Dunlap he certainly wasn't washed up but maybe not the player he was but he certainly was not checked out mentally. If he was he wouldn't have been so upset with the benching he would just sit on the sidelines and collect his money. I think his beef was the coaches didn't have the sack/respect enough to sit down and talk to him about the situation. Who wouldn't be after 10 years and putting in the kind of work these guys do. 

[Shake n Blake]

(11-14-2021, 01:17 AM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: Geno was injured his last year and just getting older. AJ had what not played football for a year and a half and not the same player he was but I don't personally feel was used the best in 2020 but that's another debate. Now for Dunlap he certainly wasn't washed up but maybe not the player he was but he certainly was not checked out mentally. If he was he wouldn't have been so upset with the benching he would just sit on the sidelines and collect his money. I think his beef was the coaches didn't have the sack/respect enough to sit down and talk to him about the situation. Who wouldn't be after 10 years and putting in the kind of work these guys do. 

All of this is based on speculation though. The only thing we know is that he wanted out for whatever reason, and he played much better when he left. You can debate whether that was lack of effort or poor scheme fit, but none of that is Zac's fault.

Just as it wasnt Marv's fault he couldn't get Takeo or Corey to buy in. That often happens with tenured vets during a regime change.

[NUGDUKWE]

(11-14-2021, 01:52 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: All of this is based on speculation though. The only thing we know is that he wanted out for whatever reason, and he played much better when he left. You can debate whether that was lack of effort or poor scheme fit, but none of that is Zac's fault.

Just as it wasnt Marv's fault he couldn't get Takeo or Corey to buy in. That often happens with tenured vets during a regime change.

Maybe I came into this late. I'm not saying it's Zac's fault. But I don't think it's speculation why Dunlap wanted out. He was moved to 2nd string without being talked to by the coaches ( that is Dunlap's side of the story ) and he went media with it when it happened. Then they bumped him to 3rd string after they picked up Hunt and he posted a pic of the depth chart. His relationship with Lou had completely fallen apart which came to a head when they got into a heated argument at the end of the Cleveland game.

[fredtoast]

(11-14-2021, 01:52 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote:  You can debate whether that was lack of effort or poor scheme fit, but none of that is Zac's fault.

He wanted to play for a competent coach who respected his ability.

How many posts have I seen talking about how even though we were losing Zac's biggest strength was "winning over the players".  Then when he runs off a good productive player it his not his fault?  Can't have it both ways.

[Shake n Blake]

(11-14-2021, 11:06 AM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: Maybe I came into this late. I'm not saying it's Zac's fault. But I don't think it's speculation why Dunlap wanted out. He was moved to 2nd string without being talked to by the coaches ( that is Dunlap's side of the story ) and he went media with it when it happened. Then they bumped him to 3rd string after they picked up Hunt and he posted a pic of the depth chart. His relationship with Lou had completely fallen apart which came to a head when they got into a heated argument at the end of the Cleveland game.

Right, but who knows why he fell out of favor and was arguing with coaches. Could just be that he was a poor fit. Sounds like he didn't like his role, and that's not his fault. That said, it's also not the coach's fault when they get saddled with players who are poor fits and become disgruntled.

This is why teams often move on from certain players when there's a regime change. It's also why teams sweat over whether or not free agents are "the right fit". Well...when you bring in new coaches, sometimes there are players already on the roster who just don't fit.

I recognize this and that's why I'm not mad at anyone that it didn't work out.

Of course, unlike Fred, I don't have a hidden agenda here. I'm not trying to protect a coach. Or former coach.

(11-14-2021, 11:50 AM)fredtoast Wrote: He wanted to play for a competent coach who respected his ability.

How many posts have I seen talking about how even though we were losing Zac's biggest strength was "winning over the players".  Then when he runs off a good productive player it his not his fault?  Can't have it both ways.

Can't assign an argument to me that I didn't make.

Also, you have no clue if that's the real reason why things went south with Dunlap. He may have perceived "disrespect", when it was really just a poor fit, and when he wasn't getting his usual numbers, he beefed with coaches to force his way out.

That's all speculation on my end, but that's my point. This is ALL speculation. I personally think Dunlap and Green were already frustrated after years of losing, and that was just exacerbated by them not liking their new roles.

There's plenty of legit reasons to criticize this staff, but blaming them for a couple of guys not buying in is kinda lame. Again, this is like saying Marv sucked because he couldn't get Takeo and Corey to buy in.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

(11-14-2021, 01:52 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: That often happens with tenured vets during a regime change.

This is an elegant yet brilliant observation. I think it may give us insight into why Jessie Bates has NOT been extended: The current coaches might consider Bates “one of Marvin’s guys” and wish to move on.

[Bengal Dude]

(11-11-2021, 02:37 AM)fredtoast Wrote: So how exactly did Marvin control our free agency policy from 1991 until he became coach in 2003?

It is absurd to argue that Marvin ( and Coslet, and Shula, and LeBeau) did not want better players in free agency.

Well Fred, feel free to contact the author of the Athletic article, who talked to Marvin and Mike Brown, and take it up with him. 

[fredtoast]

(11-15-2021, 02:26 AM)Bengal Dude Wrote: Well Fred, feel free to contact the author of the Athletic article, who talked to Marvin and Mike Brown, and take it up with him. 

You were the one who read it.  Why don't you tell me?

When exactly did Marvin convince Mike not to sign big money free agents?  If it was really Marvin's idea I am sure that question came up.