Help me understand how ….

[Whacked]

3 very talented receivers and a T.E. …..

Are all adequately covered 70% of the time?

No team is that deep talent-wise on D to blanket all 4.

Especially when they have to respect Mixon being a running and catching threat too!

Drives me nuts. /End rant

[KillerGoose]

Where are you getting the 70% figure from? Cincinnati has had a strong passing attack this season, one of the strongest by most metrics.

[*SHRacerX*]

(11-06-2021, 11:38 AM)Whacked Wrote: 3 very talented receivers and a T.E. …..

Are all adequately covered 70% of the time?

No team is that deep talent-wise on D to blanket all 4.

Especially when they have to respect Mixon being a running and catching threat too!

Drives me nuts. /End rant

I think it is in the route design.  Some of them take a while to uncover.  Offensive line has been inconsistent and doesn't always provide Joe enough time.  

What compounds that problem is the stupid run in to a pile when they are all set up to stuff the run and then you have to succeed on two or sometimes one (when they have a dumb play twice) play before punting. 

I think that running to open up the pass might work for a play-action team like the Browns who have a great run-blocking line, but for the Bengals they need to play to their strengths and attack through the air.  Then, when teams adjust and drop everyone back, gash them with Mixon and more short plays to the RB.  

[KillerGoose]

(11-06-2021, 11:46 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I think it is in the route design.  Some of them take a while to uncover.  Offensive line has been inconsistent and doesn't always provide Joe enough time.  

What compounds that problem is the stupid run in to a pile when they are all set up to stuff the run and then you have to succeed on two or sometimes one (when they have a dumb play twice) play before punting. 

I think that running to open up the pass might work for a play-action team like the Browns who have a great run-blocking line, but for the Bengals they need to play to their strengths and attack through the air.  Then, when teams adjust and drop everyone back, gash them with Mixon and more short plays to the RB.  

Interestingly enough, there isn't any evidence that running opens up the passing game. There is an analyst named Ben Baldwin, who is fantastic for advanced NFL data, who did research into this. His conclusion was that running game success has no correlation to play-action passing success, or passing success in general. Play-action seems to work because the mere threat of a run exists if the RB is on the field, the defenses have to play their gaps regardless. 

Play-action passing is really, really good, though. The Bengals would still benefit from using PA more but I agree, let Burrow rip it. He has been playing fantastic and the team has the weapons on the outside to do very well. To your last point, I would love getting Mixon involved with more screens and actually routes out of the backfield. He is a very talented receiver and a lot of a running backs value comes from their ability to catch. He and Evans, really, would be great options out of the backfield. 

[leonardfan40]

Joe is completing almost 68% of his passes this year. Not sure where you’re getting these numbers but I guess some people just love being miserable. Good luck with that.

[*SHRacerX*]

(11-06-2021, 11:53 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: Interestingly enough, there isn't any evidence that running opens up the passing game. There is an analyst named Ben Baldwin, who is fantastic for advanced NFL data, who did research into this. His conclusion was that running game success has no correlation to play-action passing success, or passing success in general. Play-action seems to work because the mere threat of a run exists if the RB is on the field, the defenses have to play their gaps regardless. 

Play-action passing is really, really good, though. The Bengals would still benefit from using PA more but I agree, let Burrow rip it. He has been playing fantastic and the team has the weapons on the outside to do very well. To your last point, I would love getting Mixon involved with more screens and actually routes out of the backfield. He is a very talented receiver and a lot of a running backs value comes from their ability to catch. He and Evans, really, would be great options out of the backfield. 

Absolutely.  The Rams and Pats used to call their short passes to the RBs as "an extension of the running game".  Whatever.  The point is, you can't blow through 8 defenders when you have five or six blockers.  Get the RBs in space (see Jets, NY, against Bengals) and let them make plays instead of trying to turn everyone in to Derrick Henry.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(11-06-2021, 11:54 AM)leonardfan40 Wrote: Joe is completing almost 68% of his passes this year. Not sure where you’re getting these numbers but I guess some people just love being miserable. Good luck with that.

Good to see you, as I think it has been a while.

I am not going to speak for the guy, but there are a lot of times, especially early in games, where it seems like our guys aren't getting open, but I believe it is a function of the opposing team's energy on pass rush early on.  The Rats were blowing up our line early, but faded.  It is almost like survive the first few drives and Burrow will get rolling. 

I would like to see more play-action, from under center, and check downs to Mixon and Evans (hell, even Perine has looked solid out of the backfield) as high % chain movers early on.  

[KillerGoose]

(11-06-2021, 11:56 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Absolutely.  The Rams and Pats used to call their short passes to the RBs as "an extension of the running game".  Whatever.  The point is, you can't blow through 8 defenders when you have five or six blockers.  Get the RBs in space (see Jets, NY, against Bengals) and let them make plays instead of trying to turn everyone in to Derrick Henry.  

Yep, I agree. I won't be surprised to see more types of these plays as the years come. You will be able to get more value and longevity out of your RBs by using them as receivers. Short, high-percentage plays that keep the clock churning (major benefit of the running game) but overall more efficient than the running game. Running becomes more situational and balancing than anything else.

The problem with the Derrick Henry's is the short shelf life and the amount of attempts it takes to get him doing what he is doing. He has an insane amount of yardage and TDs for this point in the season, but he also had 220 carries. By and large, he wasn't very efficient AND he broke down. 

On the flip side, look at Austin Ekeler (one of my favorite RBs). He is a very notable receiving RB for the Chargers. This season, he has 117 touches for 723 yards (6.17 yards per touch) and eight touchdowns. He's having a better season than Henry, imo, he just doesn't have the volume that Henry has. 

[fredtoast]

Last year everyone was squealing about how stupid Zac was for making Burrow throw too much and how we had to run the ball more to protect him. Now this year everyone is squealing about how Zac is stupid for not having Burrow throw all the time.

I have learned fans every where are always like this. No matter what the team does if they play does not work then it was a bad call. Some times in the same thread some fans will be saying we run too much and other fans say we pass too much.

Unless every play is a 100% success soem fan is going to complain about the call and insist his play call would have worked better.

[*ochocincos*]

(11-06-2021, 11:38 AM)Whacked Wrote: 3 very talented receivers and a T.E. …..

Are all adequately covered 70% of the time?

No team is that deep talent-wise on D to blanket all 4.

Especially when they have to respect Mixon being a running and catching threat too!

Drives me nuts. /End rant

Well you usually have a LB or safety cover a TE.
The DBs spread out among the WRs.
So there are at least two of the guys who are single-covered.
The pass catchers need to win their 1-on-1 matchups and/or find open holes when going against zone coverage.

[KillerGoose]

(11-06-2021, 12:04 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Last year everyone was squealing about how stupid Zac was for making Burrow throw too much and how we had to run the ball more to protect him.  Now this year everyone is squealing about how Zac is stupid for not having Burrow throw all the time.

I have learned fans every where are always like this.  No matter what the team does if they play does not work then it was a bad call.  Some times in the same thread some fans will be saying we run too much and other fans say we pass too much.

Unless every play is a 100% success soem fan is going to complain about the call and insist his play call would have worked better.

Yeah, you're 100% right. Most people will complain about the 'scheme' when they couldn't tell you the first thing about what route concepts are being ran. It's an easy scapegoat. 

[Whacked]

Sorry all - I should’ve clarified that 70% was just a random negative Nancy observation - not a statistical fact.

[*SHRacerX*]

(11-06-2021, 12:03 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Yep, I agree. I won't be surprised to see more types of these plays as the years come. You will be able to get more value and longevity out of your RBs by using them as receivers. Short, high-percentage plays that keep the clock churning (major benefit of the running game) but overall more efficient than the running game. Running becomes more situational and balancing than anything else.

The problem with the Derrick Henry's is the short shelf life and the amount of attempts it takes to get him doing what he is doing. He has an insane amount of yardage and TDs for this point in the season, but he also had 220 carries. By and large, he wasn't very efficient AND he broke down. 

On the flip side, look at Austin Ekeler (one of my favorite RBs). He is a very notable receiving RB for the Chargers. This season, he has 117 touches for 723 yards (6.17 yards per touch) and eight touchdowns. He's having a better season than Henry, imo, he just doesn't have the volume that Henry has. 

Yep, the Rams and Chargers (and maybe the 49ers) seem to be teams that get this point on offense.  Oddly, even the old Power O-running steelers have been throwing to their backs more than anyone else on their team.  THey just grind and keep the ball.  Bengals will have to be better in their short defense against them as well.  This game will tell us a lot about how they will fare against the Chargers, Broncos, and steelers.

[Whacked]

(11-06-2021, 11:54 AM)leonardfan40 Wrote: Joe is completing almost 68% of his passes this year. Not sure where you’re getting these numbers but I guess some people just love being miserable. Good luck with that.

How is recognizing talent and expecting to see more productivity labeled as “miserable”? WTH. Lol

Also - this is not about Joe’s completion %.

The inquiry is based on something entirely different; specifically, trying to learn why the potentially high-powered O, is not putting up 35+ per game.

We are stacked at QB, RB, 3 WR’s and T.E.

[fredtoast]

(11-06-2021, 12:08 PM)Whacked Wrote: Sorry all - I should’ve clarified that 70% was just a random negative Nancy observation - not a statistical fact.

I don't really understand this at all.

Believe me there are plenty of things to complain about the Bengals this year, but the one thing they have been really good at is throwing the ball.

Passing tds.....3rd
Passer rating...5th
Passing yds.....7th

[KillerGoose]

(11-06-2021, 12:16 PM)Whacked Wrote: How is recognizing talent and expecting to see more productivity labeled as “miserable”? WTH. Lol

Also - this is not about Joe’s completion %.

The inquiry is based on something entirely different; specifically, trying to learn why the potentially high-powered O, is not putting up 35+ per game.

We are stacked at QB, RB, 3 WR’s and T.E.

There have been four offenses in NFL history that have put up 35+ points per game. That's an insanely high benchmark, you're probably overrating the actual talent on this offense at the moment. 

[fredtoast]

(11-06-2021, 12:16 PM)Whacked Wrote: How is recognizing talent and expecting to see more productivity labeled as “miserable”? WTH. Lol

When you are miserable about our great passing game instead of our running game (23rd in yds/gm, 25th in yds/att) it seems like you are complaining just to be complaining.

[*SHRacerX*]

(11-06-2021, 12:04 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Last year everyone was squealing about how stupid Zac was for making Burrow throw too much and how we had to run the ball more to protect him.  Now this year everyone is squealing about how Zac is stupid for not having Burrow throw all the time.

I have learned fans every where are always like this.  No matter what the team does if they play does not work then it was a bad call.  Some times in the same thread some fans will be saying we run too much and other fans say we pass too much.

Unless every play is a 100% success soem fan is going to complain about the call and insist his play call would have worked better.

Squealing?  I think you have discussing a game plan on a message board with the sound Big Jen makes when someone steps on his foot.

We aren't expecting things to work every time, but you saw a masterful game plan by the Jets that the Bengals could be doing a lot more of early in games and forcing teams to adjust.  Running in to a pile isn't going to accomplish anything.  I am not saying abandon the run, but more to get the ball in your RBs hands in space.  It isn't that hard.  Watch the Browns, Jets (puke), Rams, and 49ers.  They don't have the receiving talent of Cincinnati and they still get the production out of their QB this way.  

[*rfaulk34*]

Jets game was over 6 days ago.

Cleveland tomorrow.

Time to let it go and move on.

[Whacked]

(11-06-2021, 12:20 PM)fredtoast Wrote: When you are miserable about our great passing game instead of our running game (23rd in yds/gm, 25th in yds/att) it seems like you are complaining just to be complaining.

So you feel Boyd and Higgins have been as productive as they have the potential to be?

Especially w Chase killing it and as a direct result getting lots attn; thus freeing them up?

Boyd and Higgins could arguably be #1 Receivers on at least a handful of teams. They have the potential to produce much more than they are.

Maybe I’m giving these guys too much credit OR maybe I’m just being greedy expectations-wise; but I think this O is often times, still only operating in 3rd gear.