O-line ranked 15th

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(12-03-2021, 12:55 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Last year he got sacked less often while dinking and dunking short passes.  This year he is getting sacked more often but throwing many more passes farther downfield.  Since the passing game is greatly improved I don't know if that means there is something "wrong" with Burrow's play.  

Last year Burrow had 4 completions of over 30 yards (2 of them short passes in air) and 23 of 20+ yds.  This year he has 17 completions over 30 yards (only 5 short passes in air) and 35 completions of 20+ yds.

................................'20......'21
Yds/comp.................10.2...12.1
Net yds/att............... 5.6...  7.1 (pass yds-sack yds/pass att + sacks)


Ben Roethlisberger and Russell are going to the Hallof Fame and they both take a lot of sacks because they hold onto the ball too long.  It is a trade off that works, but only with certain QBs.  I have not seen the numbers on Burrow recently, but when he got sacked 10 times in the first 5 games he had 3 seconds to throw the ball on every one.

Ben Roethlisberger is going to be a Hall of Famer because he plays for the Steelers. You put his exact same stats on teams like the Jags or Dolphins and nobody gives a shit about him. 6 Pro Bowls (2 of them in seasons where he only threw 21 TDs), 0 All-Pros, 0 MVPs. More seasons of <20 TDs than 30+ TDs. Literally the worst SB winning performance by a QB of all time. 34 TD/28 INT career in the playoffs. 

Benefit of being on a team that almost always had an amazing defense and very good rushing game.

His style of play has also led him to only play a full season 4 times in his career. 

- - - - - -

As for Wilson, Burrow doesn't have his legs, and doesn't have his baseball sliding ability.

(12-03-2021, 03:58 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Believe the same and we were at a record pace for sacks early in the year and this has died down quite a bit as the year has
went on and the OL gaining chemistry. Expect this to continue and for the sack number to continually go down by season's end.

It isn't going to get worse unless injuries happen exponentially. 

It actually hasn't. The record pace died out earlier because they played the Steelers (without Watt) and then they played the Jags and Burrow only got sacked 1 time in those 2 games. 

The last 3 games they have allowed 10 sacks, 13 sacks over the last 4 games.

[Shake n Blake]

Basing my opinion on ESPN win rate, PFF grades, sacks and most things one would look at, I'd say we're average at best, and most likely a bit below that. It beats the pants off of where we were last year, but its not to the point where I think people should be doing victory dances and rubbing people's faces in it.

...and just to maintain average-at-best, the FO has work ahead of it, to bring back Spain and Reiff. Priority should be Spain, as he's really our only linemen who has truly played at a very high level. Jonah and Reiff have been very solid but not anything close to Whitworth level, and Hopkins/Carman have been replacement level.

We're better, but the line is still probably the weakest aspect of this team.

[fredtoast]

(12-03-2021, 08:03 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: We're better, but the line is still probably the weakest aspect of this team.

In a nutshell.  This.

And you don't need the "probably".

[Joelist]

We still can use upgrades and obviously we need to make sure Spain and Reiff are signed but this is worlds ahead of this time last year. And whether or not some want to admit it a lot of the credit has to go to Frank Pollack. The difference between Pollack and Turner is just ridiculous.

Even better the cupboard is not bare anymore. D’Ante Smith, Isaiah Prince, Trey Hill and Jackson Carman are all being groomed in the wings. And we have a good coach now to teach them.

I still want a good veteran Center and another vet G/T but the decision to triple dip on OL in the draft plus the Reiff signing have paid off so far.

[fredtoast]

(12-03-2021, 09:20 PM)Joelist Wrote: Even better the cupboard is not bare anymore. D’Ante Smith, Isaiah Prince, Trey Hill and Jackson Carman are all being groomed in the wings. And we have a good coach now to teach them.

I'll be honest.  I though Adeniji was another over-hyped "Fred Johnson" type.  And although one will admit it now, at the end of '17 there were a lot of people here claiming that Christian Westerman and Alex Redmond were answers to our O-line problems.

But Hakeem is looking solid.  And I still have high hopes for Carman and Smith.

It is very important that we stockpile decent O-linemen.

[*Go Cards*]

(12-03-2021, 12:24 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Only months ago many fans thought the Bengals were morons for picking a WR over an OT. I hope lesson learned, fans are not experts and looks like our current scouting team did an outstanding job with both the draft and adding key FA's.

I like the fact our OL is developing every game and I think we have some depth as well which be critical in case omeone gets hurt. Hopkins  seems to be recovering from major knee surgery and playing better every week. Hopefully Burro's knee is getting healthier and stronger every week as well.

Heck just two games ago before the Bye week everybody claimed the Bengals and the coaching staff were horrible.  

Fans go whichever way the wind blows around these parts. 

[*Go Cards*]

(12-03-2021, 09:28 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I'll be honest.  I though Adeniji was another over-hyped "Fred Johnson" type.  And although one will admit it now, at the end of '17 there were a lot of people here claiming that Christian Westerman and Alex Redmond were answers to our O-line problems.

But Hakeem is looking solid.  And I still have high hopes for Carman and Smith.

It is very important that we stockpile decent O-linemen.

This

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-03-2021, 06:45 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: It actually hasn't. The record pace died out earlier because they played the Steelers (without Watt) and then they played the Jags and Burrow only got sacked 1 time in those 2 games. 

The last 3 games they have allowed 10 sacks, 13 sacks over the last 4 games.

It was a bad stretch right before the bye, we have looked better the last 2 games. Don't get me wrong the pass protection needs
to improve and Burrow needs to get the ball out quicker instead of trying to make something out of nothing. The thing is, I don't
know if Burrow will ever get that out of him and in a way I don't want him to. I think he will take more sacks in his career simply
cause of the way he plays even if the OL significantly improves which is what I expect.

[*bfine32*]

Thought I'd bump this to see if we could have an earnest discussion about the oline:

Williams: Struggled against SD, but has been a serviceable starter at LT.

Spain: Had his 1st really bad game against SF, but is having a fine season

Hopkins: Started out rough, got better, got hurt. Can be upgraded

Adeniji: I think it was a mistake replacing Carman. Put Jackson back in and let him learn

Riley: IMO the most under-rated olineman on the team. Has moved to RT for the first time in his career and is doing fine.

It's perplexing to think what we should do moving forward:

LT: Should we look to upgrade Jonah? He's a young talented LT that is pretty much middle of the road, but cheap

LG: Should we resign Spain? Veteran who's having a fine season and out performing everyone's wet dream (Thuney)

C: No question, we should look to upgrade via FA or draft

RG: Do we give up on a 2nd rounder after year one

RT: Do we look to upgrade a talented veteran

[*PhilHos*]

(12-13-2021, 07:07 PM)bfine32 Wrote: It's perplexing to think what we should do moving forward:

LT: Should we look to upgrade Jonah? He's a young talented LT that is pretty much middle of the road, but cheap

LG: Should we resign Spain? Veteran who's having a fine season and out performing everyone's wet dream (Thuney)

C: No question, we should look to upgrade via FA or draft

RG: Do we give up on a 2nd rounder after year one

RT: Do we look to upgrade a talented veteran

Resign Spain unless theirs a veteran upgrade we can get.

Outside of that, both draft AND free agency should be HEAVILY leaned upon for upgrading the OL at EVERY position. Don't shy away from a LT just because of Jonah (unless said LT is asking for too much to be a backup and can't play anywhere else). Use the draft moreso for finding future replacements and use FA to find starters and depth that will play right away..

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-13-2021, 07:15 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Resign Spain unless theirs a veteran upgrade we can get.

Outside of that, both draft AND free agency should be HEAVILY leaned upon for upgrading the OL at EVERY position. Don't shy away from a LT just because of Jonah (unless said LT is asking for too much to be a backup and can't play anywhere else). Use the draft moreso for finding future replacements and use FA to find starters and depth that will play right away..

Yes.

Keep the good depth that is currently starting and upgrade it if it isn't cost prohibitive. They've supposedly got the cap space. If guys like Hopkins are coming off your bench, you're in pretty damn good shape. If they're doing more than spot starting, it's bad enough, when the drop-off from them is as much as this team's is, you've got some issues.

Cut the deadwood, make these decent guys your backups at as many positions as possible, and roll with it. 

[Nicomo Cosca]

Carman is a tricky one. On one hand it would be crazy to give up on a top 50 pick, who’s only started a handful of games (at a new position), but he was pretty bad. And it’s concerning that he couldn’t beat out not only XSF, but also Adeniji coming back from missing a lot of the season with an injury.

I don’t think Carman looked Price or Ogbuehi level bad - those guys it was pretty obvious right from the start they were not going to be the answer. Carman had one game (Packers) where it reminded me of having Michael Jordan out there (7 pressures). But he’s also had some nice flashes. Especially in the run game, which as a RG is ideally where we want to see him shine. He’s also super young (still 21).

Re-signing Spain and Reiff should be a big priority. We’re not sitting here in December with a winning record, fighting for a playoff spot without those 2. Reiff’s absence the last couple games has been a huge loss.

Jonah should stay at LT, imo. He’s had his ups and downs this season, but he’s good enough that I don’t worry about that spot. He’s grading out extremely well at 75.8 despite giving up 6 sacks on the year. I’ll defer to the people who are watching him on every snap, and a lot more closely than I am.

Center is the big one. Hopkins just absolutely has to be replaced. They can cut him next year with very little dead money (1.1m iirc). He was serviceable before the injury, but unlike the younger guys, it’s probably a pretty safe bet we’ve seen his ceiling. The position is definitely in need of an upgrade.