Burrow vs. Herbert

[Frank Booth]

(12-05-2021, 08:31 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Sorry, yes, the Jets game he played well.

Jets - Great game
Steelers - Good game
Raiders - Mediocre
Chargers - Bad
Browns - Awful

You say chargers bad even with the finger injury and Jamarr int?

Because at worst I’d say it was a mediocre game from burrow. At best it was decent

[Tony]

(12-05-2021, 08:33 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: Hope Bates gained some respect for “the kid” since he got burned all day.

At this point, IDC if they resign him or not. He's been awful...

[Nicomo Cosca]

(12-05-2021, 08:31 PM)Nately120 Wrote: In this day and age I'd wager some website keeps track of INT stats taking defenders dropping obvious picks and WRs turning legit passes into INTs into considersation, no? 

PFF has a “turnover worthy plays” rate.

[KillerGoose]

(12-05-2021, 08:34 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: You say chargers bad even with the finger injury and Jamarr int?

Because at worst I’d say it was a mediocre game from burrow. At best it was decent

Yes. Even accounting for the first interception, he posted an 80 passer rating and fumbled the ball. Turned the ball over twice while scoring twice. He threw for 300 yards, but he dropped back 45+ times to do it, so I would certainly hope that he’s thrown for over 300 yards.

The finger injury certainly adds context, but it doesn’t change the objective results of his play which is what ultimately helps win or lose games. It was a valiant effort, but he still wasn’t effective enough.

[Shake n Blake]

(12-05-2021, 08:14 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: The browns game and lack of touchdown passes against pitt and vegas are skewing his overall stats the last 5 games

Also his first interception today was not his fault. Did you watch the game?

It's not just 1-2 games, Frank.

vs Chargers: 24-40-300-1-2 (70.8 rating)
vs Steelers: 20-24-190-1-1 (96.2 rating)
vs Raiders: 20-29-148-1-0 (92.3 rating)
vs Browns: 28-40-282-0-2 (69.0 rating)
vs Jets: 21-34-259-3-1 (102.5 rating)

He's been throwing picks every week. The only one where he didn't, he averaged only 5.1 yards/attempt. It seems like he's trying to make big plays, but is struggling without Chase, and forces too many throws.

This isn't me saying Burrow is a bust or anything silly. But a 5 week long struggle for Burrow and Chase is worth noting.

[Destro]

(12-05-2021, 08:43 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: It's not just 1-2 games, Frank.

vs Chargers: 24-40-300-1-2 (70.8 rating)
vs Steelers: 20-24-190-1-1 (96.2 rating)
vs Raiders: 20-29-148-1-0 (92.3 rating)
vs Browns: 28-40-282-0-2 (69.0 rating)
vs Jets: 21-34-259-3-1 (102.5 rating)

He's been throwing picks every week. The only one where he didn't, he averaged only 5.1 yards/attempt. It seems like he's trying to make big plays, but is struggling without Chase, and forces too many throws.

This isn't me saying Burrow is a bust or anything silly. But a 5 week long struggle for Burrow and Chase is worth noting.

Maybe he needs someone who knows how to coach QBs. 

[Frank Booth]

(12-05-2021, 08:43 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: It's not just 1-2 games, Frank.

vs Chargers: 24-40-300-1-2 (70.8 rating)
vs Steelers: 20-24-190-1-1 (96.2 rating)
vs Raiders: 20-29-148-1-0 (92.3 rating)
vs Browns: 28-40-282-0-2 (69.0 rating)
vs Jets: 21-34-259-3-1 (102.5 rating)

He's been throwing picks every week. The only one where he didn't, he averaged only 5.1 yards/attempt. It seems like he's trying to make big plays, but is struggling without Chase, and forces too many throws.

This isn't me saying Burrow is a bust or anything silly. But a 5 week long struggle for Burrow and Chase is worth noting.

5 week long struggle? I see 2 bad games and 3 good games, 2 of which he game managed because the run game was dominant. Also ran for a touchdown that steeler game. I see you didn’t include that

And it’s a bit disingenuous to not add a parentheses or something around one of the ints today against the chargers. Burrow threw a perfect pass, Jamarr failed burrow and the team

I really don’t see regression when I watch those games. The game plan on the 2 wins made it so burrow didn’t have to throw for big numbers or touchdowns.

The chargers game he was playing with a dislocated pinky on his throwing hand for almost half the game.

Let’s pump the brakes with the regression nonsense. Context is key

[*Synric*]

(12-05-2021, 08:42 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Yes. Even accounting for the first interception, he posted an 80 passer rating and fumbled the ball. Turned the ball over twice while scoring twice. He threw for 300 yards, but he dropped back 45+ times to do it, so I would certainly hope that he’s thrown for over 300 yards.

The finger injury certainly adds context, but it doesn’t change the objective results of his play which is what ultimately helps win or lose games. It was a valiant effort, but he still wasn’t effective enough.

Two of 3 turnovers recorded stat wise were on other players though. Strip Sack on a delayed deep crosser and a perfect sideline deep ball bobbled into the corners hands. Stats lie tape doesnt.

[Frank Booth]

(12-05-2021, 08:52 PM)Synric Wrote: Two of 3 turnovers recorded stat wise were on other players though. Strip Sack on a delayed deep crosser and a perfect sideline deep ball bobbled into the corners hands. Stats lie tape doesnt.

And I missed the fumble, but I presume he was holding the ball with the throwing hand that had the broken finger?

I’m not gonna rag on burrow too hard for that

[Shake n Blake]

(12-05-2021, 08:51 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: 5 week long struggle? I see 2 bad games and 3 good games, 2 of which he game managed because the run game was dominant. Also ran for a touchdown that steeler game. I see you didn’t include that

And it’s a bit disingenuous to not add a parentheses or something around one of the ints today against the chargers. Burrow threw a perfect pass, Jamarr failed burrow and the team

I really don’t see regression when I watch those games. The game plan on the 2 wins made it so burrow didn’t have to throw for big numbers or touchdowns.

The chargers game he was playing with a dislocated pinky on his throwing hand for almost half the game.

Let’s pump the brakes with the regression nonsense. Context is key

You think 148 yards on 29 attempts is good? That's Akili level production. Only reason his rating wasn't even lower is he managed to not throw a pick that week. Probably because he wasn't throwing far past the LOS.

I don't think Burrow has regressed. I think the offense has, and Burrow is affected by that. I'm also willing to admit the obvious problem with INTs is actually a problem.

[reuben.ahmed]

(12-05-2021, 08:54 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: And I missed the fumble, but I presume he was holding the ball with the throwing hand that had the broken finger?

I’m not gonna rag on burrow too hard for that

Maybe that's where he injured his finger, because he wasn't holding it until after the TD run (well after that lost fumble). anyway, do we even know if it's broken?

[KillerGoose]

(12-05-2021, 08:54 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: And I missed the fumble, but I presume he was holding the ball with the throwing hand that had the broken finger?

I’m not gonna rag on burrow too hard for that

The fumble was early in the game, before the injury. First drive, I believe.

[Frank Booth]

(12-05-2021, 08:55 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: You think 148 yards on 29 attempts is good? That's Akili level production. Only reason his rating wasn't even lower is he managed to not throw a pick that week. Probably because he wasn't throwing far past the LOS.

I don't think Burrow has regressed. I think the offense has, and Burrow is affected by that. I'm also willing to admit the obvious problem with INTs is actually a problem.

Do I think 148 yards on 29 attempts is good? Hmm there’s that word again, Context.

Seems to me that was the game plan. 20-29 is a damn good day completion wise. And when the raiders have a d-line(max crosby) who can get to the qb with the best of them, you tend to get rid of the ball quickly for shorter gains.

Also, like we all saw that game, Joe Mixon was DOMINANT. And so was the defense.

All you have to do is game manage at that point. Just don’t lose the game. That’s all burrow needed to do, and he did it

You keep focusing on numbers and continue to ignore the workings of that game

[KillerGoose]

(12-05-2021, 08:52 PM)Synric Wrote: Two of 3 turnovers recorded stat wise were on other players though. Strip Sack on a delayed deep crosser and a perfect sideline deep ball bobbled into the corners hands. Stats lie tape doesnt.

I’m not including the first interception in my numbers here. The sack is tough, like most sacks, because it can be difficult to separate QB and OL. QBs do have control over their sack and pressure rates. Even if we eliminate the fumble and account for the rushing TD, we get a rating of 89. That’s kind of janked together, converting the rushing TD into a passing TD. There are other things such as the Chase drops I’m accounting for that I am just now thinking of.

I’m willing to change my stance to Joe played well today. He didn’t play great, but he played well. Perhaps the issue is that even playing ‘well’ is a regression from what he was doing earlier in the season because for the first seven weeks he was lighting defenses up.

[Destro]

Burrow was the correct pick. He is currently working with a bunch of issues on this team. Herbert is also a good player who entered a slightly better situation. Two more years and the picture will be clearer.

[Frank Booth]

(12-05-2021, 09:02 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I’m not including the first interception in my numbers here. The sack is tough, like most sacks, because it can be difficult to separate QB and OL. QBs do have control over their sack and pressure rates. Even if we eliminate the fumble and account for the rushing TD, we get a rating of 89. That’s kind of janked together, converting the rushing TD into a passing TD. There are other things such as the Chase drops I’m accounting for that I am just now thinking of.

I’m willing to change my stance to Joe played well today. He didn’t play great, but he played well. Perhaps the issue is that even playing ‘well’ is a regression from what he was doing earlier in the season because for the first seven weeks he was lighting defenses up.

Also know that he 100% plays better rest of game if his finger isn’t dislocated. Guy was in obvious pain

[reuben.ahmed]

(12-05-2021, 09:06 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: Also know that he 100% plays better rest of game if his finger isn’t dislocated. Guy was in obvious pain

I think he actually played better after the finger dislocation (1st vs 2nd half).

[Nicomo Cosca]

(12-05-2021, 09:03 PM)Destro Wrote: Burrow was the correct pick. He is currently working with a bunch of issues on this team. Herbert is also a good player who entered a slightly better situation. Two more years and the picture will be clearer.

Pretty much this. The situation a young QB goes to accounts for so much. Just look at Lawrence with the Jags right now. If you just glance at his numbers without context you might think he’s trending towards bust, but he went to a truly awful situation, with a coach that has no business being in the NFL.

[masonbengals fan]

(12-05-2021, 09:03 PM)Destro Wrote: Burrow was the correct pick. He is currently working with a bunch of issues on this team. Herbert is also a good player who entered a slightly better situation. Two more years and the picture will be clearer.

This

[KillerGoose]

(12-05-2021, 09:06 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: Also know that he 100% plays better rest of game if his finger isn’t dislocated. Guy was in obvious pain

Playing with a broken finger is tough. I broke mine in half during a game a few years ago. It was a spiral fracture. I thought I jammed it and taped it to keep playing. It didn’t take long for the stiffness and pain to set in. I was playing WR and CB, playing QB would be even tougher.