Burrow vs. Herbert

[*rfaulk34*]

(12-05-2021, 11:01 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I get that.  Maybe that INT Burrow threw in the endzone just left more of a bad taste in my mouth than it should have.  I admit I was willing to call it a "bad luck" game by that point with the Mixon fumble and fluke Chase thing, but I just didn't see enough "tape" to erase that 19 point defecit and gap in stats between Burrow and Herbert.

If Burrow throws a TD there we can at least have some reason to say it was within a score and an onside kick and hey it was close and bad luck did us in, but that was a very not-flukey kick in the arse to end things.

It was a bad throw. I don't really have a problem, yet, with Burrows INTs. He's getting experience and finding out what he can and can't do on an NFL field. I'd rather have him "test the water" now, than be afraid to let the ball go and have to goad him into attempting certain throws, ala Maker Bayfield. 

No riskit, no biskit. In the coming years, he will start to cut down on the INTs but continue to put the ball in tight windows, throw lots of TDs and piss the hell out of opposing fans as he dissects their favorite team. 

[reuben.ahmed]

(12-05-2021, 11:05 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: It was a bad throw. I don't really have a problem, yet, with Burrows INTs. He's getting experience and finding out what he can and can't do on an NFL field. I'd rather have him "test the water" now, than be afraid to let the ball go and have to goad him into attempting certain throws, ala Maker Bayfield. 

No riskit, no biskit. In the coming years, he will start to cut down on the INTs but continue to put the ball in tight windows, throw lots of TDs and piss the hell out of opposing fans as he dissects their favorite team. 

He is pissing the hell out of some fans as he plays for their favorite team, apparently!

[Frank Booth]

(12-05-2021, 11:05 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: It was a bad throw. I don't really have a problem, yet, with Burrows INTs. He's getting experience and finding out what he can and can't do on an NFL field. I'd rather have him "test the water" now, than be afraid to let the ball go and have to goad him into attempting certain throws, ala Maker Bayfield. 

No riskit, no biskit. In the coming years, he will start to cut down on the INTs but continue to put the ball in tight windows, throw lots of TDs and piss the hell out of opposing fans as he dissects their favorite team. 

He’s throwing all these ints and still has a high passer rating. think about that.

Think about how interceptions negatively impact passer rating, and how fickle the stat is, and Burrow is still in the top half of the league in the stat.

He still might be top 10

Once he cuts down on the interceptions, which he can do because it’s only his 2nd year, we’re talking about a yearly mvp candidate

[Tony]

(12-05-2021, 09:58 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Taking Burrow overall...makes sense.  Saying Burrow outplayed Herbert by a lot?  That seems like a pot-stirring take, to me.

He's gonna say because Chase caused the int, their were other drops,  Burrow faced more pressure ,  he had a broke finger ,etc.. Trust me. I watch everyone everyone of his takes because of it lol..

[Frank Booth]

(12-05-2021, 11:11 PM)Tony Wrote: He's gonna say because Chase caused the int, their were other drops,  Burrow faced more pressure ,  iron had a broke finger ,etc.. Trust me. I watch everyone everyone of his takes because of it lol..

But is that wrong? Seems correct to me

[samhain]

(12-05-2021, 10:51 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Other than the gameday doomsayers is anyone saying Herbert is head and shoulders above Burrow?  I'm just trying to see things from other perspectives here, but Burrow is in that position where hindsight says he should be head and shoulders above Herbert since we turned down multiple picks in order to take him over Herbert.

Burrow should be head and shoulders above Herbert, and time will tell but so far he isn't.  That's the curse of being the first QB off the board...you always have to be the best and you have to be better than the rest of the QB class in addition to "all the picks you coulda gotten if you traded down."

But again, I'm back to my habit of trying to explain dissenting opinion which makes me seem like I'm just being a sour jackass.  I'll just cover my ass and say Burrow at the moment has yet to live up to "Best QB the Bengals ever had" and "Shouldn't have agreed to play for the Bengals."  Hot takes, abound.

Should he, though?  He missed a lot of games and had to sandwich a major injury and rehab into his first 2 years in the league.  The team he was drafted into was by the nature of being the one with the first overall pick, very bad.  He had an 18 million dollar hood ornament with zero interest in being a productive football player as his alleged number 1 wr last year.  

As some here say, perspective matters.  This team was comically bad before Burrow arrived and after his knee injury last year as well.  In terms of winning ball games and positioning his team for the playoffs, he's right there with Herbert despite the obvious setbacks.  Why is this team 7-5 and not 4-8 or worse?  Is it Zac's great scheme or in-game awareness carrying them?  

Anyone expecting even a veteran elite qb not to have bad games or make mistakes is going to be let down.  Josh Allen and Mahomes both have had major disappointments this year.  Lamar is going through it at this very moment.  Even the mighty Justin Herbert has a reputation for throwing costly picks and losing to inferior opponents (see last week in Denver).  The Goat cost his team a games vs New Orleans with a pick 6 and forgot what down it was in Chicago last year.  

[reuben.ahmed]

Record wise we were also comically bad in Burrow's first year while he was playing.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(12-05-2021, 11:08 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: He’s throwing all these ints and still has a high passer rating. think about that.

Think about how interceptions negatively impact passer rating, and how fickle the stat is, and Burrow is still in the top half of the league in the stat.

He still might be top 10

Once he cuts down on the interceptions, which he can do because it’s only his 2nd year, we’re talking about a yearly mvp candidate

Plus his main WR’s are only 21 and 22. These guys are going to grow together, and will light the league up in a couple years. So far we’ve seen Chase play great for about 7 weeks, while Tee was somewhat struggling, and the last 5 weeks it’s been the opposite. Just think how lethal Burrow will be if they’re both balling out at the same time.

[*Nately120*]

(12-05-2021, 11:05 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: It was a bad throw. I don't really have a problem, yet, with Burrows INTs. He's getting experience and finding out what he can and can't do on an NFL field. I'd rather have him "test the water" now, than be afraid to let the ball go and have to goad him into attempting certain throws, ala Maker Bayfield. 

No riskit, no biskit. In the coming years, he will start to cut down on the INTs but continue to put the ball in tight windows, throw lots of TDs and piss the hell out of opposing fans as he dissects their favorite team. 

I hear ya.  What is interesting is that I was in this mindset in 2020 and I thought people who were expecting him to throw 30+ TDs with 10 or less INTs as a rookie on a bad team were really setting themselves up for disappointment, but he kept the INTs under control.

Going into this season I figured I could scale back how much I'd have to excuse his INTs and he's throwing them at an increased rate.  It's early, but it's also all sorts of backwards.  Wacky. Add in that his TD to INT ratio and INT rate are getting worse as the season progresses and it's a bit of a puzzler.

[*Go Cards*]

(12-05-2021, 06:51 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Didn't they have a BIG home game just last week?

Against their arch enemy no less. 

[Tony]

(12-05-2021, 11:11 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: But is that wrong? Seems correct to me

I kinda see where he is coming from, but I can't say Burrow played better than Herbert today. It's just not there.. I think people outside of cincy would all.say Herbert is better too...

[samhain]

(12-05-2021, 11:14 PM)reuben.ahmed Wrote: Record wise we were also comically bad in Burrow's first year while he was playing.

So then yes, it's Zac's play calling that has us at 7-5.  Right.

[Frank Booth]

(12-05-2021, 11:17 PM)Tony Wrote: I kinda see where he is coming from, but I can't say Burrow played better than Herbert today. It's just not there.. I think people outside of cincy would all.say Herbert is better too...

I wouldn’t say it either but I wouldn’t disagree

And yea most people will say Herbert is better because he wasn’t sabotaged by his o-line. That award is most likely Burrow’s if his knee doesn’t explode

[*rfaulk34*]

(12-05-2021, 11:08 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: He’s throwing all these ints and still has a high passer rating. think about that.

Think about how interceptions negatively impact passer rating, and how fickle the stat is, and Burrow is still in the top half of the league in the stat.

He still might be top 10

Once he cuts down on the interceptions, which he can do because it’s only his 2nd year, we’re talking about a yearly mvp candidate

Yep. Everyone wants him to step on the field, day one and win the super bowl. I ain't gonna lie...i want it cause i've been waiting long enough already and my patience is dwindling, but i still have to step back after a bad loss--and wanting to tear the entire planet apart with my hands while stomping the dirt into whatever is solid enough (since i just shredded the earth and there's no "ground" left) while pissing on the pile and laughing maniacally--to realize he's still in year #2. He's thrown 14 picks in 12 games this year and is still the 11th rated QB in the NFL.

How many people are saying sHerbert is going to take the Chargers to the SB (at any point in his career), right now?

[Nicomo Cosca]

(12-05-2021, 11:18 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: I wouldn’t say it either but I wouldn’t disagree

And yea most people will say Herbert is better because he wasn’t sabotaged by his o-line. That award is most likely Burrow’s if his knee doesn’t explode

I actually disagree with that. Burrow just wasn’t throwing TD’s at the rate Herbert was last year. One of the main reasons we drafted a big play WR in the 1st round. I do think Burrow has been better than Herbert this season though.

[Tony]

Burrow is the most turnover prone QB in football.. I just can't get over that fact... He threw , what 5 least year? I think with all these weapons the Idea is they should be able to throw it all over the place and Burrow just isn't that QB. He needs balance... When Joe throws 2ints + a game this year they are 0-4... There was another stat when he has over 30 attempts they are bad too.. I can't remember the record, but it was bad..

[Frank Booth]

(12-05-2021, 11:21 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I actually disagree with that. Burrow just wasn’t throwing TD’s at the rate Herbert was last year. One of the main reasons we drafted a big play WR in the 1st round. I do think Burrow has been better than Herbert this season though.

See I think Burrow would’ve played better down the stretch because that’s what happens to bad teams late in the season. Remember Mixon in 2018 and the bengals getting their 2 wins late in 2019

He also wouldve broken the record for most passes completed by a rookie in a season

[Tony]

(12-05-2021, 11:18 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: I wouldn’t say it either but I wouldn’t disagree

And yea most people will say Herbert is better because he wasn’t sabotaged by his o-line. That award is most likely Burrow’s if his knee doesn’t explode

There is so many factors, that's why these debates never end...

[reuben.ahmed]

lamar actually leads the league in sacks at 37, burrow at 36. Joe leads the league in yards lost by sack. Some of the stuff people are doing is nitpicking even though you can't look at just stats, statistically Joe is in the top 10 in most categories. We can assume why Lamar and Joe have so many sacks are due to different reasons.

completions (10)
percentage (4)
yards (4)
average yards per pass (3)
yards per game (6)
TDs (4)
QB Rating (6)

He's leading the league in INTs with 14 total, Lamar with 13. int % is 3rd worst

He has a pick problem, the major differnece between his and aaron rodgers stats - aaron has 4 picks all year. Aaron is probably both more careful and the most accurate QB ever.

Sacks and picks are destroying Burrow, don't have to look at the stats for proof but he's "leading" in both essentially.

IIRC the year Dalton started 8-0 he didn't have a pick or sack in the first 5 games.

[samhain]

(12-05-2021, 11:18 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: I wouldn’t say it either but I wouldn’t disagree

And yea most people will say Herbert is better because he wasn’t sabotaged by his o-line. That award is most likely Burrow’s if his knee doesn’t explode

Stangely, I think most of Herbert's sacks were on Herbert just as much as their line.  When he loses yards, he doesn't half step, he moves backwards and loses chunks.  

A couple of Burrow's sacks were on blitzes where he was flat-out dead to rights from jump.  So was the one where Tranquil came up the middle and Hill was MIA trying to double team a DL.