Offensive Line Rating and Joey Franchise

[Sled21]

(12-15-2021, 12:34 AM)Joelist Wrote: Actually remember PFF seems to consider a 60 about average. Well most of the line was right in that zone. Except Adeniji and Prince - which is where all the sack problems emanated from. This was a game where Carman should have replaced Adeniji at RG because Carman is the better pass blocker of the two and when Reiff went out put Adeniji there WITH dedicated TE help as Bosa did almost all his damage against Prince. The bad part was ZT could see the issues but not only left them uncorrected but left Prince on an island with Bosa more than once.

Who was playing where on the line is probably more on Frank Pollack, but leaving him without help is on Taylor.

[BoomerFan]

I wasn't thinking we should draft Oline in the first round in 2022 but it has become more and more apparent we need to. The Oline is the first thing, and if it doesn't work then nothing does. I'd love to draft a corner in the first but I'm really beginning to hear the voices saying we should go Tackle, Guard, Center in the first 3 rounds. Maybe that sounds excessive but it increases your odds of finding a player who surpasses your expectations. Then field the best 10 guys you have, hopefully meaning there is some depth

[*SHRacerX*]

(12-14-2021, 10:52 PM)Boomer Anderson Wrote: I know we all give the O Line crap endlessly and we should.  They have shown "some" improvement this year, but the line's ratings for this past Niners game were Pass Blocking:  Jonah 58.5 6 pressures; Spain 53.0 4 pressures; Hopkins 57.8 3 pressures; Adeniji 24.4 6 pressures; Reiff 51.7 1 pressure and Prince 23.9 4 pressures allowed.  I mean damn, that's horrible.  

Joey Franchise was the highest rated QB in the NFL Sunday with a 90.6 rating despite the Niners constantly being either in his face, planting him after he threw or sacking him.  The dude is incredible and imagine how great he would be with just a smidge more protection and time and if Zac Taylor stopped calling plays for him and just let him turn it loose his way.   I think Joe is the best in the league (Bengal bias), and I know he isn't made of glass, but I pray every Sunday that he doesn't get killed.

Question is, how do we fix or overhaul the line, this play calling, special teams?  This team can win now, and I have to wonder if Joe wishes every day that the Bengals would've taken Herbert so that he could have gone elsewhere.  I love my black and orange and have for 52 years and always will, but Mike Brown just won't let them love us back. Someone talk me off the ledge. Lol

While I completely agree with your statements here (although I don't agree with the shot at ownership), another poster (Fan In Kettering) had the proper response:  get veteran FA talent at key positions on the line.  They also need to continue to build through the draft.  

However, that won't do anything NOW.

The Bengals have the healthiest roster, the best offense, and the best QB in the AFC North TODAY.  How can they work with the line they have?

Here is my thoughts:

Remember when Brady was a Patriot and his offense was putting up huge points on just about every team?  He had a great line, yes, but what made them great?  He didn't have always have all day to throw, but he ALWAYS had an "immediate option".  A checkdown that could uncover quickly to give him a quick drop off against a blitz, or a blown coverage.  If the coverage held, he would continue through his progressions and take his shots. 

His first Super Bowl, that final drive was a bunch of short passes to Faulk.  Nothing down the field.  For some time, it was Wes Welker.  He would be able to shake ANY LB that was trying to cover him out of the backfield.  This combination was especially lethal on third down.

That is what the Bengals need.  Mixon and Perine simply don't uncover quickly enough.  Evans shows real promise here, but is out injured and I don't know the severity of the injury.

My idea?  I doubt you will like it, but I would use Chase as a slot WR or even line him up in the backfield.  The route design of ZT takes far too long to develop and leads to Burrow getting hit.  They need their best weapon to be able to uncover for a short route on third down or 2nd and very long.  If something down the field presents itself with Higgins or Boyd, great.  But I believe on those downs Chase needs to be utilized to move the chains and give Burrow a more immediate check down.  

This does not mean you are taking away Burrow's vertical threat.  It means in certain downs and distance, you are giving him a more immediate option and getting the ball in to the hands of your playmaker.  Remember the pass to Chase that he spun out of a tackle against the ratbirds?  

Evans, if healthy, may be able to execute this role.  Until then, give me Chase short and move the chains.  No more sacks on third down.  

[SunsetBengal]

(12-15-2021, 12:34 AM)Joelist Wrote: Actually remember PFF seems to consider a 60 about average. Well most of the line was right in that zone. Except Adeniji and Prince - which is where all the sack problems emanated from. This was a game where Carman should have replaced Adeniji at RG because Carman is the better pass blocker of the two and when Reiff went out put Adeniji there WITH dedicated TE help as Bosa did almost all his damage against Prince. The bad part was ZT could see the issues but not only left them uncorrected but left Prince on an island with Bosa more than once.

What are they supposed to do?  Keeping a TE in to block all the time effectively cuts off a significant part of number of plays that can be called in any given situation.  When the QB has the hot hand, has been operating spectacularly under pressure all day, why would you take away one of his receiving options?

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-15-2021, 01:57 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: If we really gave up 24 pressures, I don't see why/how anyone would defend that, but some will always be hesitant to call the line bad.

I mean, we only threw the ball 34 times and had 24 pressures? Yowza. Call it what it is. That's doo doo...and the pressures were evenly distributed, not all on 1-2 guys.

That's gotta be their worst performance of the season. As Fred mentioned, it's improved over last year, but it's not enough.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-15-2021, 10:47 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: What are they supposed to do?  Keeping a TE in to block all the time effectively cuts off a significant part of number of plays that can be called in any given situation.  When the QB has the hot hand, has been operating spectacularly under pressure all day, why would you take away one of his receiving options?

Kind of adding to this.... it's also well known that Joe likes to run empty sets quite a bit. If they are going to continue to do that, they have to address the line this off-season.

[fredtoast]

(12-15-2021, 08:42 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Been trying to say for quite a few weeks now that some of the pass blocking improvement was a mirage based around them throwing the ball less, and that Burrow was actually getting sacked at a higher rate than last year.

And I have been trying to point out that the sack rate was a mirage compared to last season because this year Joe has had some time to throw the ball downfield when all he could do last year was dink and dunk short stuff.

[Joelist]

(12-15-2021, 10:47 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: What are they supposed to do?  Keeping a TE in to block all the time effectively cuts off a significant part of number of plays that can be called in any given situation.  When the QB has the hot hand, has been operating spectacularly under pressure all day, why would you take away one of his receiving options?

Even Zac admitted he should have been giving Prince TE help. 

[Essex Johnson]

(12-15-2021, 12:21 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: The Bengals have only won two games where Burrow dropped back less than 30 times, both of the Pitt games.

I am talking about attempts, if you want to factor in sacks it is still relative or worse since that is my point, the more we drop back with this inconsistent line especially behind when other teams knows we are passing majority of the time has not been a good answer.

This is our total Tds for Burrow and Mixon in 1st quarter 4 TDs.. average that out for a season if you did just 1st quarter, Burrow would have around 12 TDs and Mixon would have around 4 TDs, that is a receipt for having to come behind too much....  We are 5-1 under 30 attempts this year, 2-5 over....  enough said.. lets get the lead over the majority of the next 4 games and I believe we will go 3-1.  If we continue the way we have been playing in 1st quarter probably looking at 1-3, maybe 2-2

[QueenCity]

Only reason I'd be against having Chase catch short passes... is his drops are scary there. We've already seen 1 or 2 in the slant range get picked off.

[SunsetBengal]

(12-15-2021, 11:40 AM)Joelist Wrote: Even Zac admitted he should have been giving Prince TE help. 

Well, it's easy to fall back onto hindsight when you're under pressure to say something, anything to the press.

I was simply offering a logical reason why one might have kept all of the weapons available in any given moment during that game.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(12-15-2021, 10:46 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: While I completely agree with your statements here (although I don't agree with the shot at ownership), another poster (Fan In Kettering) had the proper response:  get veteran FA talent at key positions on the line.  They also need to continue to build through the draft.  

However, that won't do anything NOW.

The Bengals have the healthiest roster, the best offense, and the best QB in the AFC North TODAY.  How can they work with the line they have?

Here is my thoughts:

Remember when Brady was a Patriot and his offense was putting up huge points on just about every team?  He had a great line, yes, but what made them great?  He didn't have always have all day to throw, but he ALWAYS had an "immediate option".  A checkdown that could uncover quickly to give him a quick drop off against a blitz, or a blown coverage.  If the coverage held, he would continue through his progressions and take his shots. 

His first Super Bowl, that final drive was a bunch of short passes to Faulk.  Nothing down the field.  For some time, it was Wes Welker.  He would be able to shake ANY LB that was trying to cover him out of the backfield.  This combination was especially lethal on third down.

That is what the Bengals need.  Mixon and Perine simply don't uncover quickly enough.  Evans shows real promise here, but is out injured and I don't know the severity of the injury.

My idea?  I doubt you will like it, but I would use Chase as a slot WR or even line him up in the backfield.  The route design of ZT takes far too long to develop and leads to Burrow getting hit.  They need their best weapon to be able to uncover for a short route on third down or 2nd and very long.  If something down the field presents itself with Higgins or Boyd, great.  But I believe on those downs Chase needs to be utilized to move the chains and give Burrow a more immediate check down.  

This does not mean you are taking away Burrow's vertical threat.  It means in certain downs and distance, you are giving him a more immediate option and getting the ball in to the hands of your playmaker.  Remember the pass to Chase that he spun out of a tackle against the ratbirds?  

Evans, if healthy, may be able to execute this role.  Until then, give me Chase short and move the chains.  No more sacks on third down.  

I don’t hate it…

[*ochocincos*]

(12-14-2021, 10:52 PM)Boomer Anderson Wrote: I know we all give the O Line crap endlessly and we should.  They have shown "some" improvement this year, but the line's ratings for this past Niners game were Pass Blocking:  Jonah 58.5 6 pressures; Spain 53.0 4 pressures; Hopkins 57.8 3 pressures; Adeniji 24.4 6 pressures; Reiff 51.7 1 pressure and Prince 23.9 4 pressures allowed.  I mean damn, that's horrible.  

Joey Franchise was the highest rated QB in the NFL Sunday with a 90.6 rating despite the Niners constantly being either in his face, planting him after he threw or sacking him.  The dude is incredible and imagine how great he would be with just a smidge more protection and time and if Zac Taylor stopped calling plays for him and just let him turn it loose his way.   I think Joe is the best in the league (Bengal bias), and I know he isn't made of glass, but I pray every Sunday that he doesn't get killed.

Question is, how do we fix or overhaul the line, this play calling, special teams?  This team can win now, and I have to wonder if Joe wishes every day that the Bengals would've taken Herbert so that he could have gone elsewhere.  I love my black and orange and have for 52 years and always will, but Mike Brown just won't let them love us back. Someone talk me off the ledge. Lol

The OL doesn't need to be overhauled necessarily.
C and RG have been weaknesses all year.
The other positions have been relatively good.
OL is naturally going to have a harder time handling someone like Nick Bosa, who is elite.
Arik Armstead is also pretty good.

Bengals need to address their biggest, most consistent weaknesses first, then focus on upgrading the other spots. So a new C is my priority, then RG. Bengals will have more to address if Spain and/or Reiff aren't re-signed. If the Bengals wanted to try to find a more elite LT and move Jonah to either LG or RT, that could work, but I think Jonah is ok at LT.

The plays also play a factor. If it takes longer for receivers to get open, the OL has to block longer. Getting the ball out faster will help pass protection. While I've been hard on Taylor as a play caller, Burrow's also responsible for feeling and avoiding pressure, getting the ball out faster, and the audibles he makes at the line.

[KillerGoose]

(12-15-2021, 11:44 AM)Essex Johnson Wrote: I am talking about attempts, if you want to factor in sacks it is still relative or worse since that is my point, the more we drop back with this inconsistent line especially behind when other teams knows we are passing majority of the time has not been a good answer.

This is our total Tds for Burrow and Mixon in 1st quarter 4 TDs.. average that out for a season if you did just 1st quarter, Burrow would have around 12 TDs and Mixon would have around 4 TDs, that is a receipt for having to come behind too much....  We are 5-1 under 30 attempts this year, 2-5 over....  enough said.. lets get the lead over the majority of the next 4 games and I believe we will go 3-1.  If we continue the way we have been playing in 1st quarter probably looking at 1-3, maybe 2-2

That’s not how passing works. You’re trying to say if we throw the ball less than 30 times that it is a fact that we win more but you’re leaving out other possibilities of a pass play, such as a sack or scramble. If Burrow drops back, it is a pass play and sacks/scrambles are results of a pass play. There is no correlation to the Bengals winning more if they attempt less than 30 passes. Burrow is the most dangerous offensive player that Cincinnati has and giving him less opportunities will only hurt the offense.

EDIT - Changed bolded for clarification.

[Essex Johnson]

(12-15-2021, 12:24 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: That’s not how passing works. You’re trying to say if we throw the ball less than 30 times that it is a fact that we win more but you’re leaving out other possibilities of a pass play, such as a sack or scramble. If Burrow drops back, it is a pass play and sacks/scrambles are results of a pass play. There is no correlation to the Bengals winning more if they drop back less. Burrow is the most dangerous offensive player that Cincinnati has and giving him less opportunities will only hurt the offense.

Even if you add drop backs, it really is not changing the result... It is not a knock on Burrow that we throw less, it is that we are a more effective team as a whole when we have thrown less than more... It is not about giving him less it is putting him in better position when he throws and that is a getting a lead, a more balance offense, the numbers don;t lie when you look at this team this year...  Now lets say next year we can improve on the line, give him more protection and getting early leads, I can see us more effective throwing more but the trend and stats this year and last do not reflect that.

[BengalChris]

(12-15-2021, 08:28 AM)HarleyDog Wrote: I believe that was Dave Lapham who said that originally.

Yes, it was. Thanks for reminding me of that.

[cincyfan429]

(12-14-2021, 10:52 PM)Boomer Anderson Wrote: I know we all give the O Line crap endlessly and we should.  They have shown "some" improvement this year, but the line's ratings for this past Niners game were Pass Blocking:  Jonah 58.5 6 pressures; Spain 53.0 4 pressures; Hopkins 57.8 3 pressures; Adeniji 24.4 6 pressures; Reiff 51.7 1 pressure and Prince 23.9 4 pressures allowed.  I mean damn, that's horrible.  

Joey Franchise was the highest rated QB in the NFL Sunday with a 90.6 rating despite the Niners constantly being either in his face, planting him after he threw or sacking him.  The dude is incredible and imagine how great he would be with just a smidge more protection and time and if Zac Taylor stopped calling plays for him and just let him turn it loose his way.   I think Joe is the best in the league (Bengal bias), and I know he isn't made of glass, but I pray every Sunday that he doesn't get killed.

Question is, how do we fix or overhaul the line, this play calling, special teams?  This team can win now, and I have to wonder if Joe wishes every day that the Bengals would've taken Herbert so that he could have gone elsewhere.  I love my black and orange and have for 52 years and always will, but Mike Brown just won't let them love us back. Someone talk me off the ledge. Lol

Brown will have the team draft a CB or TE first two rounds he is not a big OL guy, and it's crazy because when they had Whitworth, Boling. Zeitler they were a strong team. A good Offensive line makes a team a winner

[fredtoast]

(12-15-2021, 12:53 PM)cincyfan429 Wrote: Brown will have the team draft a CB or TE first two rounds he is not a big OL guy,

WTF?

Last 4 years we have used 2 first round picks and one second round pick on O-line.

[fredtoast]

(12-15-2021, 12:24 PM)KillerGoose Wrote:  There is no correlation to the Bengals winning more if they drop back less. 

Record with fewer than 30 pass attempts...... 5-0
Record with more than 30 or more pass attempts....... 2-6

[KillerGoose]

(12-15-2021, 01:01 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Record with fewer than 30 pass attempts...... 5-0
Record with more than 30 or more pass attempts....... 2-6

I would like to believe you're being frivolous because I've already address this. Total dropbacks are what we should be looking at here because those are attempted pass plays. The Bengals have only won two games where they have dropped back less than 30 times - both Pitt games. A sack/scramble is a result of a pass play. Now, if the argument is that Cincinnati has won more games when they have attempted less passes, then that is a fair discussion. If Joe were to have 24 attempts but get sacked seven times with Cincinnati winning, it's a bit silly to say "well, see, they won and Joe had 24 attempts so this has to be something."