Offensive Line Rating and Joey Franchise

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-15-2021, 02:22 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I've been rolling with the "It's improved" crowd all year long, but really where is the improvement? We're on pace for more sacks in fewer attempts. Pressures have been off the chain multiple times through the year.

People have said we're better in the run game, but we're 25th in YPC.

ESPN grades us 31st in pass block win rate and 14th in run block win rate. Yay, I guess?

PFF grades are mixed at best. Tbh, I think people are looking at our overall winning record, all the changes we made in the off-season and the fact that Burrow has stayed healthy, and it's leading to some overly rosy outlooks on our improvement, which I think has been marginal.

Tbh I think our Tackles are very average, and Hopkins and RG have been massive issues. Spain is our only "plus" lineman.

Better as in, enough time to score. I think you might be forgetting how miserable this offense was because of Bobby Hart, MJ/Redmond/XSF/Billy Price/Hell I think JB played guard last year. I remember a lot of low scoring even with Joe playing. It grades out in the 20s, last year and the year before they were in the 30s. So yeah, improvement I'd say, enough? No.

[samhain]

(12-14-2021, 11:53 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Problem is taht you can not build an entire team out of expensive free agents.  You have to be able to draft and develop players if you want to have a winning program.  You also have to pay up for a few big dollar free agents to fill in the gaps.  The draft is a bigger crap shoot (even for the good teams) than any of the "experts" want to admit.  Every team is going to miss on some draft picks or lose key players to injury.  That is what free vagency is for.  But uou can't afford to just go out and sign top level free agents at every position.

According to Sportrac the Bengal have $7.5 million in cap space left over this year (2021 NFL Team Salary Cap Space Tracker | Spotrac ).  That is just barely above the league average of $6.2 million. That could have gotten one more established solid starter for our O-line.  The 18th highest paid OG makes $7.5 million this year (but I think that is yearly average).  Nothing close to the $15 million people wanted us to spend on singing the top free agent o-linemen available.  

We had Su'a-Filo (58 career starts) and Spain (74 career starts) under contract.  Thye felt those guys could hold down the fort for a year.

Even though I never expected Hopkins to be ready to start the season (his injury was in January) I can undretsand why they did not want to invest big money in a guy they might only need for one season.

Considering how cheap they got Spain I felt that they should have done more.  But it is not like they just ignored the line or projected rookies and/or guys who had never started before to start.  There was a big turnover.  Five guys who started a combined 32 games for us last year are no longer on the roster.  But they had experienced vets lined up for every spot.

I agree with development, and development overall has been an issue with the current staff at multiple positions.  The did indeed do something to try to fix it, but it was a bit of a half-step.  There really isn't much money at all invested in this offensive line.  Spain is dirt cheap and Jonah is on a rookie deal.  Carman, too.  Adeniji has a late-round rookie cap number.  Hopkins got paid middling center money and Reiff got 7.5 mil for one season.  A top tackle in this league gets into the 20s and a decent guard gets what Reiff, our highest paid tackle gets.  The most painful part of what they did is the fact that Carman can't even get on the field.  I expect more form a second round pick on a team this starved for better OL play.

Anyhow, the cap is going up significantly in 2022 and probably even more in 2023 when it catches up to where it would have been if covid never hit.  That's probably not quite enough, but there's also some salary that will drop off and even more that should be reclaimed by cutting a guy or two.  I think Trae Waynes is becoming a prime candidate for cap reallocation at this point.  You would get back 18 mil by letting Reiff walk and cutting Waynes, and that by any measure should get someone that can help.

A final point: I'll repeat that your development point is very real.  The team has to find a way to fill needs without buying talent from other teams.  I'm just at a point where I trust other teams to develop o-linemen more than I trust the Bengals.  I'd feel a lot better seeing the let Waynes go, draft a first round corner, and spend the money on a RT or C that will require some significant coin.  

This offense has already shown that's is capable of putting up 40 burgers when it's clicking.  I can recall games when they've "played bad" according to many board members and still scored 30 (Jets).  I think that I'd be fine trimming some cap on the defense to re-invest it in the o-line and try to draft and develop younger players on the D.  With legit to good blocking, you're not going to have to ask the defense to move mountains every week to win. 

[Shake n Blake]

(12-15-2021, 08:56 PM)WychesWarrior Wrote: Better as in, enough time to score. I think you might be forgetting how miserable this offense was because of Bobby Hart, MJ/Redmond/XSF/Billy Price/Hell I think JB played guard last year. I remember a lot of low scoring even with Joe playing. It grades out in the 20s, last year and the year before they were in the 30s. So yeah, improvement I'd say, enough? No.

Jamar Chase, a healthy Joe Mixon and a 2nd year progression for Burrow would probably be the biggest reasons for us scoring more, IMO.

Idk man, I've always judged the line by the same metrics for the entire decade I've been around these boards. Sacks, pressures, run game (YPC) and a few other metrics like PFF and block win rates.

If we're horrible in most of those categories, it's tough for me to say the line has improved just because the offense as as whole is better. Especially when we improved our personnel in non-line areas.

If I said we went from pathetic to just "bad", would that be acceptable?

[Essex Johnson]

(12-15-2021, 08:56 PM)Wyche Wrote: Better as in, enough time to score. I think you might be forgetting how miserable this offense was because of Bobby Hart, MJ/Redmond/XSF/Billy Price/Hell I think JB played guard last year. I remember a lot of low scoring even with Joe playing. It grades out in the 20s, last year and the year before they were in the 30s. So yeah, improvement I'd say, enough? No.

actually we were scoring points in the 20s last year also.. the line was not good last year but at same time, we were more injuried than we have been this year and to think of FA pickups , Williams now healthy and the multiple draft picks we did this year at Ol, I would say this line is a disappointment than last year with all the changes.   Burrow i believe is on pace for more sacks than last year.. that is a complete failure by this line and Pollack needs to take some blame

[ezekiel23]

Forget the draft,forget every other position.Do an all out blitz on the Offensive Line this off season.Spend the money there.The Chargers done it for Herbert,and the Chiefs done it for Mahommes last year.If there is any money left,then they can build elsewhere.

Can you imagine how good this team would be if they had a top notch OL?

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-15-2021, 10:41 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Jamar Chase, a healthy Joe Mixon and a 2nd year progression for Burrow would probably be the biggest reasons for us scoring more, IMO.

Idk man, I've always judged the line by the same metrics for the entire decade I've been around these boards. Sacks, pressures, run game (YPC) and a few other metrics like PFF and block win rates.

If we're horrible in most of those categories, it's tough for me to say the line has improved just because the offense as as whole is better. Especially when we improved our personnel in non-line areas.

If I said we went from pathetic to just "bad", would that be acceptable?

(12-15-2021, 11:48 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: actually we were scoring points in the 20s last year also.. the line was not good last year but at same time, we were more injuried than we have been this year and to think of FA pickups , Williams now healthy and the multiple draft picks we did this year at Ol, I would say this line is a disappointment than last year with all the changes.   Burrow i believe is on pace for more sacks than last year.. that is a complete failure by this line and Pollack needs to take some blame

Again guys, go back and look at the grades the last two seasons. If I remember correctly, we graded as the 32nd ranked unit one year, and 30th another. Now the unit has been as high as 15th, but typically settles in somewhere in the 20s. That's at least a ten point swing. That's improvement.

The deep ball didn't even have time to develop last year, and I don't think Mixon would've sniffed 1000 yards behind what we trotted out there. Fred makes a good point that people are ignoring on that one. Yes, Ja'Marr, but what have defenses been doing lately? Is Joe not finding Tee Higgins deep? Yes, he is, and he's getting a bit more time. He's holding the ball some which leads to a few sacks, and early on, the RBs and TEs were struggling with their assignments causing a few on their own. The last couple of weeks the line has struggled more than most of the season for sure.


This year we're averaging 27.2 ppg, last year was 19.2, 2019 was 17.4.  So no Essex, we weren't scoring nearly as much the last two years.

In summation, the oline is the weak link of the team still, but it isn't as bad as it's been. Hopefully it's a work in progress. I recall a lot of people talking about if the line was just around average, we'd be set. Well, it shows that you need it to be a bit better than average for sustained success, and how important it is to everything, no matter how good your skill guys are.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(12-16-2021, 09:04 AM)WychesWarrior Wrote: Again guys, go back and look at the grades the last two seasons. If I remember correctly, we graded as the 32nd ranked unit one year, and 30th another. Now the unit has been as high as 15th, but typically settles in somewhere in the 20s. That's at least a ten point swing. That's improvement.

The deep ball didn't even have time to develop last year, and I don't think Mixon would've sniffed 1000 yards behind what we trotted out there. Fred makes a good point that people are ignoring on that one. Yes, Ja'Marr, but what have defenses been doing lately? Is Joe not finding Tee Higgins deep? Yes, he is, and he's getting a bit more time. He's holding the ball some which leads to a few sacks, and early on, the RBs and TEs were struggling with their assignments causing a few on their own. The last couple of weeks the line has struggled more than most of the season for sure.

I agree with all of this.

As for the bold; that's been because of a couple different factors. Injuries to starters like Reiff and Hopkins, but also against the Chargers a lot of it was due to the Bengals getting down by such a big deficit that the pass rush could literally just tee off against them. The OL is definitely improved from last year, but they’re still not built to be able to play like that. Cleveland murdered us the same way.

And then against SF we just had no answer for Nick Bosa and Arik Armstead. There’s no way to sugarcoat that one, our guys were just flat out getting beat all day. But tbf, Nick Bosa does that to most teams.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-16-2021, 09:15 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I agree with all of this.

As for the bold; that's been because of a couple different factors. Injuries to starters like Reiff and Hopkins, but also against the Chargers a lot of it was due to the Bengals getting down by such a big deficit that the pass rush could literally just tee off against them. The OL is definitely improved from last year, but they’re still not built to be able to play like that. Cleveland murdered us the same way.

And then against SF we just had no answer for Nick Bosa and Arik Armstead. There’s no way to sugarcoat that one, our guys were just flat out getting beat all day. But tbf, Nick Bosa does that to most teams.

Absolutely agree with all of that. It's far from great, but it's not the shit sammiches we've been getting served....

[*SHRacerX*]

(12-16-2021, 09:04 AM)Wyche Wrote: Again guys, go back and look at the grades the last two seasons. If I remember correctly, we graded as the 32nd ranked unit one year, and 30th another. Now the unit has been as high as 15th, but typically settles in somewhere in the 20s. That's at least a ten point swing. That's improvement.

The deep ball didn't even have time to develop last year, and I don't think Mixon would've sniffed 1000 yards behind what we trotted out there. Fred makes a good point that people are ignoring on that one. Yes, Ja'Marr, but what have defenses been doing lately? Is Joe not finding Tee Higgins deep? Yes, he is, and he's getting a bit more time. He's holding the ball some which leads to a few sacks, and early on, the RBs and TEs were struggling with their assignments causing a few on their own. The last couple of weeks the line has struggled more than most of the season for sure.


This year we're averaging 27.2 ppg, last year was 19.2, 2019 was 17.4.  So no Essex, we weren't scoring nearly as much the last two years.

In summation, the oline is the weak link of the team still, but it isn't as bad as it's been. Hopefully it's a work in progress. I recall a lot of people talking about if the line was just around average, we'd be set. Well, it shows that you need it to be a bit better than average for sustained success, and how important it is to everything, no matter how good your skill guys are.

While I agree with almost everything you have said here, I wonder how much of this offensive line conversation is happening if in the past two weeks:

Chase doesn't turn a sure TD in to an INT and Mixon doesn't fumble a gift TD against the Chargers.

Darius Phillips doesn't fumble away two punt returns.

The team would have won both of those games, I believe.  Maybe you could argue that the Chargers would have fought back, but SF was doing nothing in their amazing run game.  The defense was stuffing them.  

One of the biggest problems with those turnovers wasn't just the momentum letdown and the obvious change of possession, but it put the Bengals in a hole on the scoreboard.  When they fall a couple scores down, the opponent can just tee off on the pass rush and have no responsibility as run defenders.  It happened against the Bears, Browns, Chargers, and the 49ers.  All losses.  

If this team wants to go on a run and win the AFC North, it has to eliminate the dumb mistakes.  They are more than competitive if they don't massively screw it up.  

I have a feeling they play Denver very motivated and then come home and smash Baltimore.  My dream scenario is they then knock off a less-desperate Chiefs team and could actually have the AFC North sewn up before the final game.  That would give them the opportunity to rest their starters (since only one team gets the bye) against the Browns and be in the playoffs with a pseudo bye week.  

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-16-2021, 10:15 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: While I agree with almost everything you have said here, I wonder how much of this offensive line conversation is happening if in the past two weeks:

Chase doesn't turn a sure TD in to an INT and Mixon doesn't fumble a gift TD against the Chargers.

Darius Phillips doesn't fumble away two punt returns.

The team would have won both of those games, I believe.  Maybe you could argue that the Chargers would have fought back, but SF was doing nothing in their amazing run game.  The defense was stuffing them.  

One of the biggest problems with those turnovers wasn't just the momentum letdown and the obvious change of possession, but it put the Bengals in a hole on the scoreboard.  When they fall a couple scores down, the opponent can just tee off on the pass rush and have no responsibility as run defenders.  It happened against the Bears, Browns, Chargers, and the 49ers.  All losses.  

If this team wants to go on a run and win the AFC North, it has to eliminate the dumb mistakes.  They are more than competitive if they don't massively screw it up.  

I have a feeling they play Denver very motivated and then come home and smash Baltimore.  My dream scenario is they then knock off a less-desperate Chiefs team and could actually have the AFC North sewn up before the final game.  That would give them the opportunity to rest their starters (since only one team gets the bye) against the Browns and be in the playoffs with a pseudo bye week.  

I agree Racer....I think the turnovers have cost us LAC, CLE, CHI, and maybe the SF game. It wasn't playcalling that lost those games, and it wasn't the oline that lost those games. It was turnovers.....some of them at very critical points in the game....some in the red zone. 

I think it's fair to acknowledge that the line isn't that good, but also that it hasn't cost us as much as rookie mistakes (young team) and turnovers from some of our skill players. Make no mistake, I'd like to see some more improvement up front...but I also don't think it's as bad as it seems.

[*SHRacerX*]

(12-16-2021, 11:19 AM)Wyche Wrote: I agree Racer....I think the turnovers have cost us LAC, CLE, CHI, and maybe the SF game. It wasn't playcalling that lost those games, and it wasn't the oline that lost those games. It was turnovers.....some of them at very critical points in the game....some in the red zone. 

I think it's fair to acknowledge that the line isn't that good, but also that it hasn't cost us as much as rookie mistakes (young team) and turnovers from some of our skill players. Make no mistake, I'd like to see some more improvement up front...but I also don't think it's as bad as it seems.

Exactly.  How did they look on that final drive before the sack that led to the FG?  Burrow was attacking down the field, too.  

Here's to putting it all together this weekend and down the stretch.  

[*pally*]

well with injuries and sickness they are back to 2020. Starting OL on Sunday is Price, Spain, Hopkins, Adeniji, Johnson

I can't remember if they ever played that configuration last year but here we are

[Shake n Blake]

(12-16-2021, 09:04 AM)WychesWarrior Wrote: Again guys, go back and look at the grades the last two seasons. If I remember correctly, we graded as the 32nd ranked unit one year, and 30th another. Now the unit has been as high as 15th, but typically settles in somewhere in the 20s. That's at least a ten point swing. That's improvement.

The deep ball didn't even have time to develop last year, and I don't think Mixon would've sniffed 1000 yards behind what we trotted out there. Fred makes a good point that people are ignoring on that one. Yes, Ja'Marr, but what have defenses been doing lately? Is Joe not finding Tee Higgins deep? Yes, he is, and he's getting a bit more time. He's holding the ball some which leads to a few sacks, and early on, the RBs and TEs were struggling with their assignments causing a few on their own. The last couple of weeks the line has struggled more than most of the season for sure.


This year we're averaging 27.2 ppg, last year was 19.2, 2019 was 17.4.  So no Essex, we weren't scoring nearly as much the last two years.

In summation, the oline is the weak link of the team still, but it isn't as bad as it's been. Hopefully it's a work in progress. I recall a lot of people talking about if the line was just around average, we'd be set. Well, it shows that you need it to be a bit better than average for sustained success, and how important it is to everything, no matter how good your skill guys are.

Tbh I don't think we disagree all that much. I'm just less pleased with the progress we've seen this year and don't think we've even sniffed "average". Believe it or not, Mixon was on pace for 1141 yards and 8 TDs last year prior to injury. Just saying bulk yards isn't the best indicator for success.

Our yards per carry improved, but we're still only ranked 25th. In the 6 games Burrow and Mixon were healthy last year, we averaged 21.5 ppg, and that's with one game where the Ravens held us to 3.

We're better this year, but I'd attribute 90% of that to Jamarr and the natural progression of Burrow. We can't just ignore that QBs progress with experience. The line isn't getting smoked as badly as last year. They've even had some decent games and moments.

It's still bad though. Tbh it feels like we're saying very similar things, but one of us is happy with the progress we've seen and the other (me) wanted much better this year and is still kinda ticked that people shamed me all offseason for doubting the line, and claimed it'd be fine/average, and now I'm being shamed for not being happy about a little progress.

This isn't aimed at you specifically. Just venting here.

[*bfine32*]

I've vacillated over keep it or bust it. IF we don't make the playoffs I say break the bank. Sign:

Terron Armstead: $24 Mil/Year

Brandon Scherff: $14 Mil/Year

Austin Colbert; $9 Mil/Year

Move Jonah to the Right Tackle

[reuben.ahmed]

(12-17-2021, 06:42 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote:  Believe it or not, Mixon was on pace for 1141 yards and 8 TDs last year prior to injury. Just saying bulk yards isn't the best indicator for success.

Our yards per carry improved, but we're still only ranked 25th. 

This isn't aimed at you specifically. Just venting here.

There are 2 types of people, those that think about YPC and those that don't.

[Murdock2420]

(12-17-2021, 07:03 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I've vacillated over keep it or bust it. IF we don't make the playoffs I say break the bank. Sign:

Terron Armstead: $24 Mil/Year

Brandon Scherff: $14 Mil/Year

Austin Colbert; $9 Mil/Year

Move Jonah to the Right Tackle

While he has stayed healthy for the season, he certainly has not shown to be the elite franchise LT the team has been searching for since Whit left.

Need to really go big on the OL this off-season, hopefully Spain re-signs, but need 1 tackle, 1 guard and 1 center.

I think in time Carman will be okay, but he should be learning on the bench not out there costing the team games. XSF is a walking injury and should be gone. Smith had health issues two years in college and once again has health issues as a pro, maybe he develops but again shouldn't be counted on. They just need to go out and sign starters and make a real effort.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(12-15-2021, 05:38 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Because Chase has not been the only receiver to catch deep passes this year.

40+ yard receptions...

Chase: 6
Higgins: 1
Boyd: 0

[Fan_in_Kettering]

(12-15-2021, 08:56 PM)WychesWarrior Wrote: So yeah, improvement I'd say, enough? No.

Of course the Bengals’ offensive line has improved; they had no place to go but up. I can’t imagine a worse situation than 2019 and 2020. While line play is better it’s still bad — just not historically bad.

With skill players like Joe Burrow, Ja’Marr Chase, Tee Higgins, Tyler Boyd, Joe Mixon, and CJ Uzomah the Bengals should be blowing the doors off every opponent on the offensive side of the ball. The truth is Joe Mixon is getting mauled by defensive lineman and linebackers and Joe Burrow does not have time to throw deep. He’s been sacked and knocked down more than any other quarterback in the league and this is why he leads the league in interceptions.

Joe Burrow is mobile to a certain degree but he’s primarily a quintessential pocket quarterback like Carson Palmer. Behind bad pass protection both Burrow and Palmer have similar results: Spectacular passing interspersed with way too many head-scratching interceptions.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(12-18-2021, 01:40 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Of course the Bengals’ offensive line has improved; they had no place to go but up. I can’t imagine a worse situation than 2019 and 2020. While line play is better it’s still bad — just not historically bad.

With skill players like Joe Burrow, Ja’Marr Chase, Tee Higgins, Tyler Boyd, Joe Mixon, and CJ Uzomah the Bengals should be blowing the doors off every opponent on the offensive side of the ball. The truth is Joe Mixon is getting mauled by defensive lineman and linebackers and Joe Burrow does not have time to throw deep. He’s been sacked and knocked down more than any other quarterback in the league and this is why he leads the league in interceptions.

Joe Burrow is mobile to a certain degree but he’s primarily a quintessential pocket quarterback like Carson Palmer. Behind bad pass protection both Burrow and Palmer have similar results: Spectacular passing interspersed with way too many head-scratching interceptions.

This couldn’t be further from the truth. Burrow is often at his best off script.

[Essex Johnson]

(12-18-2021, 01:40 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Of course the Bengals’ offensive line has improved; they had no place to go but up.  I can’t imagine a worse situation than 2019 and 2020.  While line play is better it’s still bad — just not historically bad.  

With skill players like Joe Burrow, Ja’Marr Chase, Tee Higgins, Tyler Boyd, Joe Mixon, and CJ Uzomah the Bengals should be blowing the doors off every opponent on the offensive side of the ball.  The truth is Joe Mixon is getting mauled by defensive lineman and linebackers and Joe Burrow does not have time to throw deep.  He’s been sacked and knocked down more than any other quarterback in the league and this is why he leads the league in interceptions.  

Joe Burrow is mobile to a certain degree but he’s primarily a quintessential pocket quarterback like Carson Palmer.  Behind bad pass protection both Burrow and Palmer have similar results: Spectacular passing interspersed with way too many head-scratching interceptions.

Agree with the majority of your post especially the lack of improvement of line when u put all in perspective