Why Didn't We Give Hill The Ball At The 5??

[RoyleRedlegs]

(11-03-2015, 04:15 PM)djs7685 Wrote: With the execution I'm just saying that it had more to do with what happened on the field rather than the play calling.

The refs and defense had something to do with the execution of the plays. My point was just that I don't think Hue called a horrific series and things weren't executed on the field as they could/should have if you consider Andy playing perfectly on the drive along with Pittsburgh having a weaker secondary than run D.

I do think all 3 passes could have been TDs, but good defense and poor officiating does happen sometimes. Meh, I can't get worked up over Hue's decisions, I like to see the more aggressive approach occasionally.

It just seemed, to me, that it would have required the defense to falter for any of those plays to really succeed.
I hate playcalling that seems to predicate itself on mistakes of the other team.
Give me a hard slant from Eifert or Jones there and I'm okay with three pass plays. 

[*Synric*]

A slant woulda been a better call I agree and exactly the call made for the AJ TD, but I also agree we shoulda seen a run. The Bengals were one of the best teams at rushing inside the redzone last year same line same back. I would have loved to have seen the line get revenge for the first half.

[BFritz21]

(11-03-2015, 02:13 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: same thing for running

But there's a lot less possibility for error with the ball being airborne for any time at all in a pass.  There's also less time and less room for the receivers to get any kind of separation from that short of a field.

(11-03-2015, 02:45 PM)djs7685 Wrote: ORLY? 

Looks like you "mis-quoted" yourself.  

But then I also said that if the first two had gotten us close enough, MAYBE A THIRD WOULD BE OK 

(11-03-2015, 02:47 PM)djs7685 Wrote: I'd probably be right on board with the complaining if we were on the 1 yard line.

Throwing 3 passes from the 5 when you're the most efficient passing offense in the league and your QB is 6/7 with 66 yards on the current drive seems like a legitimate gameplan to me, but hey, I'm no OC myself either!

So why not line him up under center where you can also bring an effective play action into play?  

Go back and watch the drive.  Have you done that?  I have a few times, including just now.  Dalton was able to complete all but two of those passes because the defense was playing off so they wouldn't give up the big play and then Dalton just kept dumping it off underneath for short gains.

Those wouldn't have worked from the five because the defenders would have been playing tighter.

The two exceptions?  One was Eifert up the seams, which he would have been out of the back of the endzone if he had run that route from the five.  The second was Eifert on a slant, which the defenders would have been in the passing lanes because they wouldn't have been playing back.

I'm no OC myself, but it seems logical that a pass in those situations are far less likely to work.

[GreenCornBengal]

(11-03-2015, 02:47 PM)djs7685 Wrote: I'd probably be right on board with the complaining if we were on the 1 yard line.

Throwing 3 passes from the 5 when you're the most efficient passing offense in the league and your QB is 6/7 with 66 yards on the current drive seems like a legitimate gameplan to me, but hey, I'm no OC myself either!

I had no complaints. Gotta keep the defense guessing. Just poor execution.

[djs7685]

(11-03-2015, 05:20 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: But then I also said that if the first two had gotten us close enough, MAYBE A THIRD WOULD BE OK 

blah blah blah blah

Listen, you aren't going to get a serious response from me since you can't even admit you were wrong about our exchange earlier. Are you seriously going to say you didn't say 3 in a row when I quoted you clearly asking why we didn't just give it to Hill 3 times there? Stop trying to backtrack now, you said it, then you said you didn't say it, then I quoted you saying it, now you're deflecting.

If you can't own it when you make a mistake, I'm not entertaining the rest of your shit, sorry Brad.

[reuben.ahmed]

I think I can buy Andy audible-ing out of run plays since it seemed like he was calling an audible every other play. One thing I was surprised that we just didn't adjust, of course we're going to attack the 27th pass defense through the air - but it took them a long time to realize that wasn't working (mid 3rd quarter).

Patriots adjust a lot better than we do. Our offense can do anything we just have to change what's not working, when it's not.

[BFritz21]

(11-03-2015, 05:23 PM)djs7685 Wrote: Listen, you aren't going to get a serious response from me since you can't even admit you were wrong about our exchange earlier. Are you seriously going to say you didn't say 3 in a row when I quoted you clearly asking why we didn't just give it to Hill 3 times there? Stop trying to backtrack now, you said it, then you said you didn't say it, then I quoted you saying it, now you're deflecting.

If you can't own it when you make a mistake, I'm not entertaining the rest of your shit, sorry Brad.

You can't admit when you're just attacking me to be an asshole.  

Even if I did contradict myself, why would you ignore the rest of the post?

We all know the answer.

[Adamantium]

For some reason these idiot teams try to be unpredictable by passing when they should run and it costs them. Luckily the Bengals made it out ok, but it's s*** like that that totally destroys seasons.

[CKwi88]

Is that the drive that Gio had a burst up the middle for 12 yards?


I get that Dalton has been playing like an all-pro, but I agree. At least run it on first or second. I won't lie, I was hoping for a QB draw. Oh well.

[Joelist]

It wasn't passing per se. It was that stupid fade route that almost never seems to work for us. Note that when they got back down there again Andy went with a different pattern to AJ. And it worked for the TD.

[fredtoast]

Fans always claim they are right when they second guess coaches. Fact is that there is no guarantee we get score running the ball. I am guessing that the defense set was what made the Bengals decide to throw the ball.

If we had ran the ball into the teeth of a stacked box three times then some fans would be upset that we did not throw the ball.

[*Nately120*]

(11-03-2015, 08:26 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Fans always claim they are right when they second guess coaches.  Fact is that there is no guarantee we get score running the ball.  I am guessing that the defense set was what made the Bengals decide to throw the ball.  

If we had ran the ball into the teeth of a stacked box three times then some fans would be upset that we did not throw the ball.

Good point.  I have to wonder why we didn't throw the ball on those plays where Hill fumbled!

[BFritz21]

(11-03-2015, 08:26 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Fans always claim they are right when they second guess coaches.  Fact is that there is no guarantee we get score running the ball.  I am guessing that the defense set was what made the Bengals decide to throw the ball.  

If we had ran the ball into the teeth of a stacked box three times then some fans would be upset that we did not throw the ball.

The coaches don't know how a defense lines up when they call the play.

Put Hill behind a fullback and run it off tackle.  He's very hard to stop when you give him the ball deep going off tackle because a fullback picks up anybody that busts through the line and he can pick a path with the least amount of defenders.  

We could have run the ball twice on and passed on third down, or run the ball on first and play-action on second down, leaving the option to throw or run on third down.

It's a lot more crowded and harder to throw when you're that close to the goal line.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(11-03-2015, 11:37 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: I love Gio and love his role, but sometimes you need to play big boy power football. 

How does those three plays have anything to do with that?

Or did you forget that they got 1st & Goal from the 5 because Gio ran the ball straight up the middle for 12 yards? That's big boy power football right there. Didn't have to put Hill in there, you just had to give the ball to either of the RBs. I'd personally choose the one who just ripped off a 12 yard run. The problem has nothing to do with Gio, it has to do with not running it at all.

I think it's time to stop the whole narrative that Gio can't run it up the middle and Hill can....
-Hill has a career 3.56 YPC while running directly up the middle. (3.7 YPC in 2014, 3.4 YPC in 2015)
-Gio has a career 4.10 YPC while running directly up the middle. (3.4 YPC in 2013, 4.0 YPC in 2014, 6,0 YPC in 2015)

If you want to play big boy power football and run it up the middle, the stats say you need to hand the ball to Gio. Just like Ray Rice (2.4 YPC up the middle in 2008, 5.5 YPC in 2009), he wasn't good up the middle his rookie year because he needed to grow into an NFL body. He's done that now.

[BFritz21]

(11-04-2015, 01:37 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: How does those three plays have anything to do with that?

Or did you forget that they got 1st & Goal from the 5 because Gio ran the ball straight up the middle for 12 yards? That's big boy power football right there. Didn't have to put Hill in there, you just had to give the ball to either of the RBs. I'd personally choose the one who just ripped off a 12 yard run. The problem has nothing to do with Gio, it has to do with not running it at all.

I think it's time to stop the whole narrative that Gio can't run it up the middle and Hill can....
-Hill has a career 3.56 YPC while running directly up the middle. (3.7 YPC in 2014, 3.4 YPC in 2015)
-Gio has a career 4.10 YPC while running directly up the middle. (3.4 YPC in 2013, 4.0 YPC in 2014, 6,0 YPC in 2015)

If you want to play big boy power football and run it up the middle, the stats say you need to hand the ball to Gio. Just like Ray Rice (2.4 YPC up the middle in 2008, 5.5 YPC in 2009), he wasn't good up the middle his rookie year because he needed to grow into an NFL body. He's done that now.

That's because the defense is expecting pass when Gio is in the game, and also because Gio has a different running style where he works better with room to run.

On Gio's run to get us to the 5, both safeties were also playing 15 yards off the ball so no one was there to come up in run support and it was just an all-around bad play by Pitt's D because they all just got fanned out, the backside backer didn't stay home, Gio cut-back, and ran through untouched.  I could have rolled through that hole.  If teams are going to play us like that, then, by all means, run Gio, but it's normally not going to be like that.

I'd also like to see how many of those runs were down inside the 5 or 10 (up the middle).

Hill can lower his shoulder and plow for extra yards better than Gio and can also break tackles with force better.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(11-04-2015, 01:57 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: That's because the defense is expecting pass when Gio is in the game, and also because Gio has a different running style where he works better with room to run.

On Gio's run to get us to the 5, both safeties were also playing 15 yards off the ball so no one was there to come up in run support and it was just an all-around bad play by Pitt's D because they all just got fanned out, the backside backer didn't stay home, Gio cut-back, and ran through untouched.  1. I could have rolled through that hole.  If teams are going to play us like that, then, by all means, run Gio, but it's normally not going to be like that.

I'd also like to see how many of those runs were down inside the 5 or 10 (up the middle).

2. Hill can lower his shoulder and plow for extra yards better than Gio and can also break tackles with force better.

1. You should try out for the Bengals in that case if your ability to cut back and running vision is equal to that.

2. As evidenced by his massive 3.3 YPC this season compared to Gio's weak 5.6 YPC? At some point you need to put last season behind you and realize that right now this year, one of the RBs is simply playing better than the other in every facet of the game and that RB's name is Giovani Bernard.

I think we need to set aside expectations and what we hoped would happen (I made Hill my keeper I was so confident in him) and just accept current reality.

[Stonyhands]

(11-03-2015, 12:12 PM)Goalpost Wrote: Andy has been reading defenses and doing a lot of adjustments this year.  This looked like one of them, where he saw Green in single coverage and chose that option 1st.  It just didn't work this time.

Please show me any game Andy Dalton has ever thrown a successful fade to any receiver/ TE since he's been a Bengal.  That play needs taken out back, shot, and buried.  I think teams actually line up to make us throw this because it has never worked for us.  I even looked at my wife and said here comes another failed fade throw.  Sure enough.

[fredtoast]

(11-04-2015, 02:18 AM)Stonyhands Wrote: Please show me any game Andy Dalton has ever thrown a successful fade to any receiver/ TE since he's been a Bengal. 

Game winning td against the Ravens this year.

[*Synric*]

(11-04-2015, 02:18 AM)Stonyhands Wrote: Please show me any game Andy Dalton has ever thrown a successful fade to any receiver/ TE since he's been a Bengal.  That play needs taken out back, shot, and buried.  I think teams actually line up to make us throw this because it has never worked for us.  I even looked at my wife and said here comes another failed fade throw.  Sure enough.

Dalton and AJ are usually money on the fade route. Check out 2013 highlights alot if his TDs were fades.