Dysfunction in Cleveland

[J24]

(01-07-2022, 07:39 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I'm convinced, that's a stout argument. Great job, champ.

Genuinely though, what makes you believe otherwise? 

I'm sorry that I offended you with my comments. Not being an ass.

All of the guys I mentioned above Ryan, Jimmy, Kirk, Carr, and I would also throw in Gotf and Ryan Tannehill. 

Are not overly talented QBs they have  So so arms, not overly athletic, and not particularly brilliant  minds(not dumb either). Their more game managers than superstar QBs. They need other guys around them to be best player on the team.

I would throw Baker into that same category the difference this season between him and those guys was
A.) Health- He had a torn Labrum, a battle with covid, and he had a minor leg injury (I think?).
B.) Injuries around him Chubb missed three games, Jarvis missed 5, Cronklin was hurt a lot this season. Plus him and Beckham couldn't get along at all and he had to deal with all of that drama.

Secondly I would argue that Baker had one of the best Rookie seasons ever in 2018 and he had a pretty good season in 2020. He also has a playoff win on his resume. Plus he still in the beginning stages of his career where you would expect up and down performances.

The only significant difference between him and those other guys is he needs to be more consistent. Talent wise though I don't see much of a difference.

[KillerGoose]

(01-07-2022, 09:44 PM)J24 Wrote: I'm sorry that I offended you with my comments. Not being an ass.

All of the guys I mentioned above Ryan, Jimmy, Kirk, Carr, and I would also throw in Gotf and Ryan Tannehill. 

Are not overly talented QBs they have  So so arms, not overly athletic, and not particularly brilliant  minds(not dumb either). Their more game managers than superstar QBs. They need other guys around them to be best player on the team.

I would throw Baker into that same category the difference this season between him and those guys was
A.) Health- He had a torn Labrum, a battle with covid, and he had a minor leg injury (I think?).
B.) Injuries around him Chubb missed three games, Jarvis missed 5, Cronklin was hurt a lot this season. Plus him and Beckham couldn't get along at all and he had to deal with all of that drama.

Secondly I would argue that Baker had one of the best Rookie seasons ever in 2018 and he had a pretty good season in 2020. He also has a playoff win on his resume. Plus he still in the beginning stages of his career where you would expect up and down performances.

The only significant difference between him and those other guys is he needs to be more consistent. Talent wise though I don't see much of a difference.

You didn't offend me, your comment just didn't provide much so I threw in some sarcasm. 

Really, I agree with your assessment of most of those guys but that doesn't really prove your point. Those things can be true while still being clearly better than Baker. This season is fine to put an asterisk on, but let's take a look at where Baker ranks since he came into the league, efficiency wise...



This is strictly performance based, so saying "how productive/efficient have you been?" It doesn't take an analytical eye to say "Baker hasn't been good" because it's pretty easy to see but this is also taking into account this year. So, what if we remove this year since we agree that there is an asterisk to it?



Again, it isn't looking great for Mayfield. He is in the bottom tier of QBs here. Every QB except for Goff fairly clearly out performing Baker and this isn't even going into conventional counting stats, where they also outperform Baker. Baker has had plenty of talent on that team - he had OBJ, who was productive early on and a rock solid offensive line. Cleveland has a talented defense, and the rest of their receivers are capable. He also has arguably the best rushing duo in the entire league on his team, though this argument is weak because rushing and passing success don't appear to correlate.

To your second point, Baker's rookie season was nowhere near one of the greatest rookie seasons ever. Russell Wilson clearly had a better rookie season, as did Newton (people love to point his passing metrics out here but choose to ignore the 700+ yards and 14 TDs he produced on the ground). Justin Herbert, hell you can make the case that Deshaun Watson had a better rookie season than Baker despite only starting six games. Dak Prescott is another guy. These are all players drafted within the last 10-ish years. Hell, we can plot this.  





Much further back than that and you have to start trying to era adjust but the point is that Baker hasn't even had one of the greatest rookie seasons of the past decade, let alone ever. I will agree that Baker played very well in 2020, but a good performance in 2020 doesn't override the awful 2019 that he had. Does Dalton's elite performance in 2015 change what people think of him? No, of course not. 

Baker struggles with consistency, you're right but the irony of what you're saying is that this is a major reason as to why he isn't better than any of those guys, save for Goff. Good QBs are consistent and if you struggle with that consistency, you aren't a good QB. If he can find that consistency then yeah, he'll have a stronger argument for being better than those guys but until then, there isn't much of one unless you just want to ignore what he has been doing since he came into the league. The problem there is that generally players are who they are by the time they finish their fourth season in the league. The list of QBs who were mediocre for their first contract and then blossomed on their second contract is pretty short. Could Baker improve? Of course he could. Is it likely that he improves? No. 

Baker is more than likely exactly what we have been seeing, a mediocre QB who is inconsistent even with a good supporting cast. Can this change? Yeah, of course, but there is very little evidence to suggest that the aforementioned QBs AREN'T better than him.