Who will be remembered more- ZT or Marvin

[Rubekahn29]

If Zac’s career as a Bengals HC ended today. Who do you think will be remembered more favorably.

Marvin Lewis who gave us many playoff appearances and solid teams, but could never get over the hump.

ZT who gave us the on of the worst 2 year stretches in Bengals history, but defeated history and won us our first playoff game in 31 years.

[R3stangs]

Marvin who?

[fredtoast]

I know it is hard for many Bengal fans to believe, but most NFL fans measure success by good seasons and Championships.  Just winning one opening round playoff game is not considered an amazing accomplishment.  To them "getting over the hump" is winning a championship.

If Burrow stays healthy then I believe Zac will have a lot more success than Marvin.  The front office has finally decided that it is okay to sign big name free agents.

But if Zac's tenure ended today I don't think he would be considered a very good coach based on just one winning season.

[*Go Cards*]

I will never forget either one of them

and am fans of both coaches.

[TecmoBengals]

I value Zac winning the first playoff game in 30+ seasons, but I cannot overlook the pros for voting Marvin:

- Ended the '90s embarrassment (along with Palmer, Chad, and other talented players)
- Coached the team for 16 seasons (It's not Marvin's fault if Brown was overly loyal)
- Had a winning record
- Won 131 games
- Ended the drought of the team not making the playoffs or having a possibility of contending for a post season spot

I think Zac has an opportunity to exceed Marvin with the playoff win as the obvious starting point. He still has a shot at this season for more playoff wins and a Super Bowl. If Zac can keep doing what he is, he can climb the franchise coaching win list.

Regarding ownership investing more dollars in free agents under Zac than Marvin, it is a fair point to consider when comparing the two coaches; however, it should not be an isolated factor and the only factor when comparing the two coaches. It's to think it's the only difference between the two. For all we know, Zac influenced ownership to spend the dollars and Marvin wasn't capable of leveraging his status within the organization to make it happen. Although, I suspect Mike Brown has diminished control and that is why the free agency spending is taking place.

Anyhow, if Zac never coached for the Bengals again and the Raiders win was his last Bengals moment, my vote goes to Lewis. I speculate in the long run Zac is going to build an exceptional case for best Bengals coach ever.

Edit: Agreed with fred's take that having Burrow gives Zac an advantage.

[3wt]

(01-17-2022, 12:30 PM)Go Cards Wrote: I will never forget either one of them

and am fans of both coaches.

This.

Marvin Lewis did a lot to open up the family into investing more in their team.  He was a classy man and has a distinguished history as a coach.

Like all coaches he had his blinde spots and made significant errors.  But he resuscitated this team from the flat linear it became following the loss of Sam Wyche.

I think Zach is young and learning, but hes smart and IS learning.  And he has the heart of this team.

[Bengal Dude]

Both guys will always be remembered no matter what. Zac helped us finally get the playoff monkey off our backs. Marvin is the guy who pulled us out of the dark ages.

[Cosmokramer]

We all know our best team in the Marvin Era was the year Palmer got hurt on the first play, that game would have gone so different had that not happened. I think that was his best team and time to shine, and that just stopped him dead in his tracks! But Marv is a super classy guy

[Soonerpeace]

(01-17-2022, 12:29 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I know it is hard for many Bengal fans to believe, but most NFL fans measure success by good seasons and Championships.  Just winning one opening round playoff game is not considered an amazing accomplishment.  To them "getting over the hump" is winning a championship.

If Burrow stays healthy then I believe Zac will have a lot more success than Marvin.  The front office has finally decided that it is okay to sign big name free agents.

But if Zac's tenure ended today I don't think he would be considered a very good coach based on just one winning season.

Marvin coached 16 years at one place. That alone warrants plenty of respect. Taylor will be remembered more fondly but certainly not yet.

[GAWhoDey]

If Zac's time with the Bengals ended today, he'd be remembered more simply because he apparently dropped dead three days after winning a playoff game. People always remember tragedies like that.

[Sled21]

People will remember Marvin because he was here so long. But outside some Division Championships, his tenure was nothing really special outside of the length of time. Taylor has already joined the club with Forrest Gregg and Sam Wyche as the three Bengals head coaches with playoff wins. He will soon enough join them as Super Bowl coaches (maybe not this year, but soon enough, and maybe this year) Then I predict Taylor will be the lone Bengals coach with a Super Bowl win. There can be only one.....

[TecmoBengals]

(01-18-2022, 10:43 AM)Sled21 Wrote: People will remember Marvin because he was here so long. But outside some Division Championships, his tenure was nothing really special outside of the length of time. Taylor has already joined the club with Forrest Gregg and Sam Wyche as the three Bengals head coaches with playoff wins. He will soon enough join them as Super Bowl coaches (maybe not this year, but soon enough, and maybe this year) Then I predict Taylor will be the lone Bengals coach with a Super Bowl win. There can be only one.....

& when it happens, he's a no doubter for me as best Bengals coach ever. I voted Marvin within the framework of the OP's rules: If Zac never coached again (meaning he doesn't coach this week against the Titans).

Marvin & Palmer era = end of Bengals dark ages.
Marvin & Dalton era = meh.

[Sled21]

(01-18-2022, 11:36 AM)TecmoBengals Wrote: & when it happens, he's a no doubter for me as best Bengals coach ever. I voted Marvin within the framework of the OP's rules: If Zac never coached again (meaning he doesn't coach this week against the Titans).

Marvin & Palmer era = end of Bengals dark ages.
Marvin & Dalton era = meh.

At some point there is going to have to be a "Club Taylor" added to the board....

[grampahol]

The question is mental gymnastics since Zac, unless he suddenly dies or otherwise just quits for no reason whatsoever will be around for awhile longer. One would have to go back in time and bump off Marvin after his 3rd season with the Bengals and also somehow completely erase his accomplishments with Faultimore..  Other than the above reasons I'd pick Zac..but Marvin did actually accomplish more in 3 years as far as turning the ship around, but the turnaround was never a complete 180, more like 160 or so.. The team wasn't in the crapper as far for Zac as it was for Marvin. Marvin fished the team from the bottom of a sea of shoot.. (remember George Carlins definition for shoot.. ) Zac got lucky and got the front office to actually spend some money.  

[TecmoBengals]

(01-18-2022, 11:39 AM)Sled21 Wrote: At some point there is going to have to be a "Club Taylor" added to the board....

I propose Club Chad Johnson, Club Willie Anderson (ASAP if enshrined in Canton), and Club Taylor totally has to be an image of his inward grin. 

[grampahol]

(01-18-2022, 11:54 AM)TecmoBengals Wrote: I propose Club Chad Johnson, Club Willie Anderson (ASAP if enshrined in Canton), and Club Taylor totally has to be an image of his inward grin. 

Don't forget Club Jeremy Hill for the members who are always super negative.. lol

[Graphicguy]

Two different coaches who will be remembered for two different things.

Marvin pulled this team out of the mental cycle of saying “we’re trying hard, so everything’s OK”. Whether it was him, or just age catching up to Mike Brown, he also got the Brown family to trust the HC more and to let them make more decisions. This was also Marvin’s downfall. Eventually, the more power he was given, the more his faults were magnified.

He gave character lip service, but the main culprits with his mistakes were having guys with character “issues” in prominent roles on the team. He did the same as DC for Baltimore. What Marvin WILL NOT be known for is his success in the post season…at least not with the Bengals. This also showed up in the undisciplined play of Marvin’s teams (look at all the stupidness that cost the team some of their most important games). Character goes “hand in hand” with success when playoffs hit and Marvin’s choices doomed him, in a variety of different ways.

Towards the end, he was really floundering. Which is too bad, as I always liked him. His byline will say more about his tenure than his success.

Zak will be known for bringing the team over the hump to gain success. The ZT teams compared to the ML teams are night and day. I think the ML rosters were every bit as talented as this current roster. Character is the key difference. This current team is disciplined. They make very few stupid mistakes. When they do, the cause of the mistakes are usually eliminated. The team is one of the least penalized teams in the league.

Zak also brought in analytics. This may just be more with the times, but Zak got Mike Brown to embrace it.

I don’t think anyone will argue that ZT has his staff draft better than Marvin.

And, the fact that ZT was hammered in his first two seasons, gave him battle scars that he’s now using to build a tough, never give up kind of team.

So, if not this year (but boy I hope it’s this year), in the ensuring years, Zak will be known as another, more successful, long time Bengals coach….along side the likes of Forrest Gregg, only with a longer, and more successful tenure.

[Sled21]

(01-18-2022, 11:58 AM)grampahol Wrote: Don't forget Club Jeremy Hill for the members who are always super negative.. lol

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(01-18-2022, 02:46 AM)Bengal Dude Wrote: Both guys will always be remembered no matter what. Zac helped us finally get the playoff monkey off our backs. Marvin is the guy who pulled us out of the dark ages.

This. Right. Here.

[Garrus]

Marvin helped turn the franchise into an actual professional operation. The 90's was so full of incompetence that those early to mid 2000s teams were a huge breath of fresh air. Marvin had his ceiling for sure, and also some really rotten luck, but without him I don't think the FO is where it is today. In a way he is a big reason for where we are today.