Adeniji-vs-Carman part II

[*ochocincos*]

(01-31-2022, 09:25 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Carman is definitely better suited to play OG.

Might be, but I'm not taking the chance that he's going to magically develop in the offseason.
I want at least a serviceable vet there to compete with him.
Adeniji is below average, and Smith is an unknown.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(01-31-2022, 10:09 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Might be, but I'm not taking the chance that he's going to magically develop in the offseason.
I want at least a serviceable vet there to compete with him.
Adeniji is below average, and Smith is an unknown.

I don’t think there would be anything “magical” about a young player improving his game, but I agree with your general sentiment here. Like you said, our window is officially open. We need to go all in while Burrow is on his rookie contract.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(01-31-2022, 06:53 PM)grampahol Wrote: I also have to assume the grades never take into account who said players are up against.. Are they playing across from 10 time probowlers or 4th string scrubs because of a whole bunch of injuries? 

That is correct; who's lining up against them has NEVER been taken into account.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(01-31-2022, 11:29 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: That is correct; who's lining up against them has NEVER been taken into account.

Which is kinda dumb honestly.

[Joelist]

If those PFF numbers are real and not typos on the site then PFF is officially a laughingstock. The pressure numbers are wrong for on e thing and their ratings are ridiculous - 0.1??? In a game when only one sack was allowed? For a 0.1 we should have seen sacks every snap - the grade for pass blocking against the Chiefs for the team is roughly 15 points lower than it was against the Titans?

[thompson19osu]

The eye test says Carman. He made a perfect block on the Perine TD that sealed the lane and setup the score.

As an aside Chase was downfield with a great block as well.

[fredtoast]

Anyone who gives up on an NFL player based on his rookie season doesn't understand the NFL.

Bengals are not going to spend big money ($8+ million) on a player to compete with Carman next year.

[CincinnatiKid]

(01-31-2022, 03:29 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Carman once again was clearly better and didn't have a penalty from what I saw which has to be the only reason he hasn't
been starting over Adeniji. Adeniji is on roller skates out there. Get him the hell out of the game FFS.

Go back and watch the replay of the 3rd and 7 where Joe Burrow did his Houdini act. Carman let Chris Jones run right by him…it really was cringe worthy. Makes you wonder why a 2nd round pick is currently that much of a project 

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

(02-01-2022, 12:47 AM)CincinnatiKid Wrote: Go back and watch the replay of the 3rd and 7 where Joe Burrow did his Houdini act. Carman let Chris Jones run right by him…it really was cringe worthy. Makes you wonder why a 2nd round pick is currently that much of a project 

The same thing happened against Jones in the week 17 match up. It was the play that Jones ripped off Burrow's nameplate as he went by him. He went through Carman as if he wasn't there at all and Joe had no time to set up before having to instantly run forward to escape for a three or four run. He had a few other poor plays, a false start and a hold in one half.

But that was a month ago. I think that he looked much better this time around even having a few hiccups. I think his confidence is growing.

[*ochocincos*]

(01-31-2022, 11:24 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I don’t think there would be anything “magical” about a young player improving his game, but I agree with your general sentiment here. Like you said, our window is officially open. We need to go all in while Burrow is on his rookie contract.

Use of the word magical was probably inaccurate/unfair.
He could elevate his performance in the offseason, but do we want to rely on that?
I think we're in agreement to not rely on hope now.

[Sled21]

(02-01-2022, 12:47 AM)CincinnatiKid Wrote: Go back and watch the replay of the 3rd and 7 where Joe Burrow did his Houdini act. Carman let Chris Jones run right by him…it really was cringe worthy. Makes you wonder why a 2nd round pick is currently that much of a project 

Sometimes the play, like a screen, means the O line is supposed to let the rush come through so the screen is open. Not sure if that was the case in the play you are talking about, but sometimes when it looks like the Oline is just letting guys through, that's because they are.

[*Synric*]

(02-01-2022, 10:48 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Use of the word magical was probably inaccurate/unfair.
He could elevate his performance in the offseason, but do we want to rely on that?
I think we're in agreement to not rely on hope now.

I'm not in agreement. Offensive Line is notorious for slow starts developing and big jumps in year 2. Bengals have several guys plus can continue to add more competition for guard spots.

You have to trust the coaches as much as the players. You either believe Frank Pollack and Ben Martin can coach guys up or you don't.

[*ochocincos*]

(02-01-2022, 11:01 AM)Synric Wrote: I'm not in agreement. Offensive Line is notorious for slow starts developing and big jumps in year 2. Bengals have several guys plus can continue to add more competition for guard spots.

You have to trust the coaches as much as the players. You either believe Frank Pollack and Ben Martin can coach guys up or you don't.

I think Pollack's scheme is fine, but who have we seem him develop as a Bengals coach? 
His drafted OL haven't exactly panned out for the Bengals so far.

So I guess no, I don't quite believe Pollack yet when it comes to developing talent with the Bengals because we haven't seen him succeed at that yet.

[*Synric*]

(02-01-2022, 11:07 AM)ochocincos Wrote: I think Pollack's scheme is fine, but who have we seem him develop as a Bengals coach? 
His drafted OL haven't exactly panned out for the Bengals so far.

So I guess no, I don't quite believe Pollack yet when it comes to developing talent with the Bengals because we haven't seen him succeed at that yet.

Then the problem is the coach. The Bengals just spent 3 draft picks (1 premium pick) on offensive line in 2021 and are going to most likely spend another premium pick this year.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(02-01-2022, 11:29 AM)Synric Wrote: Then the problem is the coach. The Bengals just spent 3 draft picks (1 premium pick) on offensive line in 2021 and are going to most likely spend another premium pick this year.

I highly doubt they view a single coach on this staff as a “problem” considering where we’re at. Pollack has done a fine job for what he’s working with. Jonah took a nice step forward this season, Spain had a career year, Hopkins was bad early on (understandable) but got better as the season progressed, RG has been brutal but is that really on Pollack? At least some of the blame has to be on Carman himself going all the way back to the shape he came into camp, and at RT Pollack was able to get the most of Prince when Reiff went down. To the point where he at least wasn’t a complete determinant anyway.

[SladeX]

Pollack had to undo damage made by turner as well, perhaps? Spending more time on vets than normal years.

[*ochocincos*]

(02-01-2022, 11:38 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I highly doubt they view a single coach on this staff as a “problem” considering where we’re at. Pollack has done a fine job for what he’s working with. Jonah took a nice step forward this season, Spain had a career year, Hopkins was bad early on (understandable) but got better as the season progressed, RG has been brutal but is that really on Pollack? At least some of the blame has to be on Carman himself going all the way back to the shape he came into camp, and at RT Pollack was able to get the most of Prince when Reiff went down. To the point where he at least wasn’t a complete determinant anyway.

Interestingly, Jonah Williams was worse as a pass protector this year compared to last year, according to PFF.
He improved dramatically as a run blocker though.

Part of me does worry that Pollack might not be as good with developing pass blocking as he is with the run game.

[*ochocincos*]

(02-01-2022, 11:42 AM)SladeX Wrote: Pollack had to undo damage made by turner as well, perhaps?

Carman and Smith wouldn't have any of the Turner style.
Only Adeniji would, but Adeniji was used more as an OT when Turner was here.
It could be that Adeniji just isn't as equipped to handle OG due to dealing with bigger guys.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(02-01-2022, 11:55 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Interestingly, Jonah Williams was worse as a pass protector this year compared to last year, according to PFF.
He improved dramatically as a run blocker though.

Part of me does worry that Pollack might not be as good with developing pass blocking as he is with the run game.

Well, we also faced an absolute gauntlet of elite pass rushers this season.

Mack
TJ Watt
Garrett
Ngakoue
Crosby
Joey Bosa
Nick Bosa
Chris Jones
Simmons

Obviously not all of them lined up on Jonah every snap, but with stunts and twists some of those guys ended up going up against him.

[*ochocincos*]

(02-01-2022, 11:29 AM)Synric Wrote: Then the problem is the coach. The Bengals just spent 3 draft picks (1 premium pick) on offensive line in 2021 and are going to most likely spend another premium pick this year.

One thing that gives me indication that Pollack is more equipped for coaching the run compared to the pass - look at how the Cowboys performed in the passing game while he was their OL Coach (2015-2017).

2015 - 27th in passing yards, 9th in rushing yards
2016 - 23rd in passing yards, 2nd in rushing yards
2017 - 26th in passing yards, 2nd in rushing yards

Prior to Pollack taking over as OL coach, the Cowboys were more pass-heavy than run-heavy.
It's also worth noting that all but one of the Cowboys starting OL (Smith, Frederick, Martin, Free) during that time came from when Callahan was the OL coach. The only OL player that was added who has stuck was La'el Collins. And Collins has been a better pass blocker ever since Pollack left, according to PFF.

I don't doubt that Pollack is good with the run game. We see it this year especially with Mixon, and we saw it back in 2018 too.
But I really do think that it's in the Bengals' best interest to get FA OL to fill in the gaps if we are worried about pass blocking, as I don't have confidence Pollack is a great coach in that area.