Changing the Culture Matters

[grampahol]

(02-02-2022, 03:52 PM)Au165 Wrote: Yea, that stuff was weird because no one in the NFL looked at this as a top 10 roster coming into the year. People were using results to change the narrative of what the roster was coming into the year, which was a lot of young and unproven players along with mid tier free agents (couple were high end but with question marks). I mention it from time to time,  but I know people involved in the league and can tell you nobody thought this roster was good outside of the offensive skill positions having the chance to be really good at some point. 

As I've said in the past if I had to make a living by predicting the futures of young men I'd have starved to death before I was even born..  You really never know who is going to shine brightest when the lights come on. I'm sure this world could produce many, many more NFL ready players if there was a need or if and when the NFL expands globally.. There are at least 5 other continents full of people where the surface has barely been touched much less scratched.. How many young men do you think would give their right nut for a chance to play and get paid to be an NFL player at any level? There are 5 untapped continents of them just waiting.. 
Back to the Bengals.. You never really know who is going to pan out and who isn't. Any ideas how many things had to go right to produce Joe Burrow playing at his level in the league for OUR team no less? So many things could have easily altered this path from poor grades in school to poor behavior to one flawed genetic blip anywhere along the line.. The number of things that can go so wrong in a person's life are just uncountable.. The same can be said about it going like Joe's life or anyone's life for that matter.

[*Nately120*]

I'll buy in to an extent that we've done a complete franchise overhaul here, but I'd also rather not risk it and see what our amazing coaches and front office and revamped culture can do without Joe Burrow for at least 10+ years...you know, just to play it safe.

I just doubt everything we have going for us right now puts us in the SB this second if we win 1 more game in 2019 and Burrow is in Washington right now.

[Au165]

(02-02-2022, 07:27 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I did.

And I actually heard a few "experts" say that we had bought a lot of talent in the free agent market, but the big question was coaching.

The whole "no one thought we had any talent" narrative just is not true. But it doesn't matter because the coaches proved they were up to the task.  Lots of teams with talent don't win.

Who were these experts you heard say this was anything but a below average roster? I know people in the league didn’t say that, so I’m curious who you heard say it? There is a difference between we got some talent in FA and this roster as a whole wasn’t thought to be bottom half coming into the year.

In reality most people thought we went backwards picking Hendrickson over Lawson and Awuzie over WJ3. They all said we had the worst O line in the league. Our linebackers were unproven and we had an elite safety and a journeyman. Nothing other than the weapons and Bates/Reader screamed quality players…probably why our preseason odds to win the SB were so bad, along with our win total being 6.

[*bengalfan74*]

(02-02-2022, 07:27 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I did.

And I actually heard a few "experts" say that we had bought a lot of talent in the free agent market, but the big question was coaching.

The whole "no one thought we had any talent" narrative just is not true. But it doesn't matter because the coaches proved they were up to the task.  Lots of teams with talent don't win.

Yep

You've stood behind Burrow from the beginning. 

[TecmoBengals]

(02-02-2022, 11:41 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Yep

You've stood behind Burrow from the beginning. 

Link?

I think that's how the shtick goes. 

[Nepa]

(02-02-2022, 11:22 PM)Au165 Wrote: probably why our preseason odds to win the SB were so bad, along with our win total being 6.

Here is a couple of Jungle Noise threads where one could remember how lowly the Bengals were thought of before the season started, with odds to only win 6.5 games and being ranked near the bottom of the league by most pundits:

http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-Week-1-Bengals-Power-Ranking-Roundup

http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-Mathematical-estimates-and-simulation-for-the-Bengals-in-2021

[fredtoast]

(02-02-2022, 09:03 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: LMAO at least you realize your poor takes on Zac now need to be hidden for fear of a mass board bombardment of you.

My "poor takes" were 100% justified.  Taylor did not do anything on his resume or his first two seasons here to give any indication that he would be a successful head coach.

But even I said he deserved a third season because of the unusual amount of injuries his first two seasons.

[fredtoast]

(02-02-2022, 11:22 PM)Au165 Wrote: Who were these experts you heard say this was anything but a below average roster?

Sporting News had us ranked 16th before the season started.  That is top half of the league.

[fredtoast]

(02-02-2022, 11:41 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Yep

You've stood behind Burrow from the beginning. 

I was very glad we got Burrow.  I just made fun of the sycophants who were claiming he didn't need an O-line because he could make plays outside the pocket, and he didn't need great WRs because he could "throw them open", and he was going to cure all of the team's problems by "holding players accountable".  Joe was not one of those QBs who needed talent around him because he could just make everyone around him better.

Well it ended up that no matter how much Burrow held AJ Green accountable he still sucked.  And every draft discussion was a shouting match between the people who said Joe could not survive without a better O-line and the people who said he would never be a great passer without a better WR or TE.

[*Synric*]

Sometimes you build the roster then take the QB...Sometimes you take the QB then build the roster around him. It has to be the right QB. Right Au? Lol

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(02-02-2022, 07:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: We had the same "culture" but it didn't mean anything when we did not have the talent.

Last year we had 11 different players start in 10 different combinations on our o-line.  This years line has not been good, but it is much better than that '20 dumpster fire thanks to some health and a $7 million free agent RT.  Then we replaced the worst starting WR in the league (Green) with one of the very best (Chase) and upgraded from Drew Sample to Uzomah at TE.  Amazing how much better the "culture" is when you have guys that can play.

On defense last year we lost our top 3 DTs by the 4th game of the season and our CBs were destroyed by injury.  All of our top 4 CBs missed considerable time with injury.  Our #5-#7 CBs LeShaun Sims, Jalen Davis, and Tony Brown combined to play more snaps than any of our top 4 except Jackson.  This year we add 4 new starters with $35 million free agent money (Hendrickson, Ogunjobi, Awuzie, Hilton) and Reader stayed healthy.  Again, interesting how much better the "culture" is when you have talented players.

Taylor has done a great job of not only selecting new players, but also coaching them up and fitting them into his system.  But all this talk about "culture" is meaningless.  We had the exact same culture last year and stunk.  Joe Burrow had the same "swagger" last year and just won 2 games as a starter.

It is possible oy praise Taylor for what he has done without making him some cult hero guru.  Players always have fun and enjoy themselves when they are winning.

So.....talk to that 88 team about building a family culture, and how it helped them out. There was an article I posted about all of that last week. Seems like there is some of that cooking now.

It can be a combination of things, ya know. It also took a little time to weed out all of the dead wood from the last system that was in place.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(02-02-2022, 10:48 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I'll buy in to an extent that we've done a complete franchise overhaul here, but I'd also rather not risk it and see what our amazing coaches and front office and revamped culture can do without Joe Burrow for at least 10+ years...you know, just to play it safe.

I just doubt everything we have going for us right now puts us in the SB this second if we win 1 more game in 2019 and Burrow is in Washington right now.

Burrow's great....but he didn't have 6 INTs in the postseason, and isn't approaching a record held by Adam Vinatieri. Football is the ultimate team sport. In fact, and this is a TOTALLY irrational/hyperbolic take, it could be argued that Burrow is being propped up by a first round WR. You know, for old times sake.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(02-03-2022, 03:35 AM)Wyche Wrote: Burrow's great....but he didn't have 6 INTs in the postseason, and isn't approaching a record held by Adam Vinatieri. Football is the ultimate team sport. In fact, and this is a TOTALLY irrational/hyperbolic take, it could be argued that Burrow is being propped up by a first round WR. You know, for old times sake.

You ninja'd, so you know the "propped up" bit is absurd, but I wouldn't disagree that he's been greatly helped by Chase. Being able to just chuck it downfield and knowing you have a guy open down there is great for any QB.

We saw that with Young/Rice, Murray/Hopkins, and Stafford/Megatron just off the top of my head, but there are countless others I am sure. It's no mystery why Kirk Cousins put up his two highest TD years, two of his 3 highest passing yard years, and two of his 3 highest QB Rating years all in his 2 years with Justin Jefferson. In the regular season the Bengals were 3-5 when Chase had less than 60 receiving yards, 7-2 when he had more than 60.

[Au165]

(02-03-2022, 02:20 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Sporting News had us ranked 16th before the season started.  That is top half of the league.

Man, surprised you didn’t find a fan sided article if you are stretching “expert” that hard. I stand by my statement.

[Au165]

(02-03-2022, 02:41 AM)Synric Wrote: Sometimes you build the roster then take the QB...Sometimes you take the QB then build the roster around him. It has to be the right QB. Right Au? Lol

Yea, I definitely wanted Young early in the process because of the issues at O line. By the end of Burrows season at LSU though I had turned to Burrow and we will figure it out haha. Sometimes a guy just transcends normal logic.

[Nepa]

(02-03-2022, 02:20 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Sporting News had us ranked 16th before the season started.  That is top half of the league.

Fred, that is really cutting and choosing from the list that I presented. The whole ranking list is:

NFL.com. 30th
CBS sports 29th
Bleacherreport 25th
SI  29th
USA Today 28th
Washington Post 27th
Pro Football Talk 29th

and then Sporting New 16th

[gman657]

Fred’s selective examples and even more selective memory strikes again. Such an odd poster

[Sled21]

(02-02-2022, 09:01 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Your lack of knowledge still amazes me. Lou was the third choice. Taylor was encouraged to hire a DC with experience and none wanted to come.

Not to mention by the time Taylor was hired, a lot of potential DC's had signed elsewhere already.

[Sled21]

(02-03-2022, 02:19 AM)fredtoast Wrote: My "poor takes" were 100% justified.  Taylor did not do anything on his resume or his first two seasons here to give any indication that he would be a successful head coach.

But even I said he deserved a third season because of the unusual amount of injuries his first two seasons.

Yeah, you keep saying that, but that's only because you refuse to look past the scoreboard. Anyone with any semblance of impartiality should have been able to look at what Taylor was doing with the roster and see he was building something special. Getting rid of the last of the malcontent holdovers from Marvin's years who refused to try to do things differently, and keeping those who bought into his system, then drafting and bringing in FA's who were from Championship programs, Captains, and coach's sons. As you admitted you can't tell what could have been last year due to the number of injuries that devastated this team at important positions, but if you looked at how this team reacted to those losses, you would recognize a vast change from years previous, where players would give up and turn on each other. Taylor was building a house here, and you just drove by, saw the lawn wasn't in yet, and said "He's not done anything"

[fredtoast]

(02-03-2022, 03:31 AM)Wyche Wrote: So.....talk to that 88 team about building a family culture, and how it helped them out. There was an article I posted about all of that last week. Seems like there is some of that cooking now.

Perfect example of the point I was making.  Culture does not create wins.  Wins create culture.  If the '88 team won because of some culture they had created then they would not have been a .500 team the very next year with the very same coach and the very same "culture".