Player development

[SuperBowlBound!]

Player development is the key for sustaining a winning organization. I remember previous post on here thinking Pratt was going to be a bust and here he is in year 3 developing into one of the better players at his position. Offensive Line is even harder to develop. Frank Pollack has my trust to be able to see either the potential in our young lineman or if it is time to walk away from some of them. The problem is we all watched the Bengals play in the Super Bowl and witnessed how bad the offensive line played. We cannot move forward without protecting our most important asset.

If it was me I think Tre Hopkins and Quinton Spain are as good as they are going to be at this point in their career. They need to be gone next year. Youngsters Trey Hill, Jackson Carmen & D'Ante Smith will still be on this team to develop. That leaves Hakeem Adenji or Isiah Prince to show they belong on this team as more than practice squad players.

Jonah Williams will be a starter next year at LT. I don't see the Bengals spending 23 mil to bring in Terron Armstead. I see them signing Free Agents in the 7.5 to 15 mil range if possible.

That leaves 4 openings for free agents.

I do think they will sign Riley Reiff to come back to play either RT or RG. He seems to be so well respected by this team that I cannot see him being a one and done player.

That brings us down to 3 more quality free agents with one being a center.

I hope we sign at least 2 of them on the first day of free agency and not waiting for the bargain bin.

[Bengalitis]

(02-17-2022, 08:53 PM)SuperBowlBound! Wrote: Player development is the key for sustaining a winning organization. I remember previous post on here thinking Pratt was going to be a bust and here he is in year 3 developing into one of the better players at his position. Offensive Line is even harder to develop. Frank Pollack has my trust to be able to see either the potential in our young lineman or if it is time to walk away from some of them. The problem is we all watched the Bengals play in the Super Bowl and witnessed how bad the offensive line played. We cannot move forward without protecting our most important asset.

If it was me I think Tre Hopkins and Quinton Spain are as good as they are going to be at this point in their career. They need to be gone next year. Youngsters Trey Hill, Jackson Carmen & D'Ante Smith will still be on this team to develop. That leaves Hakeem Adenji or Isiah Prince to show they belong on this team as more than practice squad players.

Jonah Williams will be a starter next year at LT. I don't see the Bengals spending 23 mil to bring in Terron Armstead. I see them signing Free Agents in the 7.5 to 15 mil range if possible.

That leaves 4 openings for free agents.

I do think they will sign Riley Reiff to come back to play either RT or RG. He seems to be so well respected by this team that I cannot see him being a one and done player.

That brings us down to 3 more quality free agents with one being a center.

I hope we sign at least 2 of them on the first day of free agency and not waiting for the bargain bin.

Hopkins isn't going anywhere..

[jj22]

If you want to pick up 3rd and 1's and 2's on the ground you have to consider replacing Hopkins.

Saying he isn'g going anywhere so strongly because you think we can't sign 4 starters is one thing.

Saying he isn'g going anywhere because you believe he is average or above average is another.

[puddycat]

Agree. Don't forget Hopkins is also supposed to be the leader of the line calling out assignments. Bengals got killed by blitzes and stunts. Quenton Spain is OK, but a low end starter (IMO). I'd feel better about him if he is a team leader, or if he could play both OG spots. Pissing off Aaron Donald after a perfectly legal play on Burrow doesn't count as leadership.
I'm OK with picking over the 2nd tier, especially injury-prove-it and older players who see a chance to win with Burrow.
Last year was the year for plug and play OL. This year everybody requires development. Bengals need to go hard in FA; I'd still like to trade 2 firsts for Linderbaum.

[*Go Cards*]

Would think every single O-line player is worried right now, and should be too.

[SuperBowlBound!]

(02-17-2022, 09:30 PM)jj22 Wrote: If you want to pick up 3rd and 1's and 2's on the ground you have to consider replacing Hopkins.

Saying he isn'g going anywhere so strongly because you think we can't sign 4 starters is one thing.

Saying he isn'g going anywhere because you believe he is average or above average is another.

I really like Hopkins and Spain. I just don't think we can go where we want to go with them as our starters. They had their chance to prove it.
If Spain keeps Donald off of Joe on that last play we are Super Bowl champions.

We have to get 4 free agents with 2-3 of them on the higher end. If that means not signing Bates I will be ok with that.
LSU did not win the National Championship because of their defense. Kansas City did not win a Super Bowl with their defense.
We need to protect Burrow at all cost and give him the opportunity to score at will in the NFL.

The opportunity to win is now.

[Joelist]

Spain and Williams are legit starter quality. Hopkins is more reserve/spot starter. Prince is strictly a backup and Adeniji needs to go. So, the quickest way to get real benefits from infusing Free Agent blood is signing legit starters not past prime at RG and RT. If you can somehow improve on Hopkins that would be the third thing to do but since at least 75% of the OL issues occurred on the right side RT and RG MUST be fixed first.

[casear2727]

(02-17-2022, 11:06 PM)puddycat Wrote: Agree.  Don't forget Hopkins is also supposed to be the leader of the line calling out assignments.  Bengals got killed by blitzes and stunts.  Quenton Spain is OK, but a low end starter (IMO).  I'd feel better about him if he is a team leader, or if he could play both OG spots.  Pissing off Aaron Donald after a perfectly legal play on Burrow doesn't count as leadership.
I'm OK with picking over the 2nd tier, especially injury-prove-it and older players who see a chance to win with Burrow.
Last year was the year for plug and play OL.  This year everybody requires development.  Bengals need to go hard in FA; I'd still like to trade 2 firsts for Linderbaum.

We havent had a Center competently lead the oline since when? Braham maybe?

[casear2727]

(02-17-2022, 11:06 PM)puddycat Wrote: Agree.  Don't forget Hopkins is also supposed to be the leader of the line calling out assignments.  Bengals got killed by blitzes and stunts.  Quenton Spain is OK, but a low end starter (IMO).  I'd feel better about him if he is a team leader, or if he could play both OG spots.  Pissing off Aaron Donald after a perfectly legal play on Burrow doesn't count as leadership.
I'm OK with picking over the 2nd tier, especially injury-prove-it and older players who see a chance to win with Burrow.
Last year was the year for plug and play OL.  This year everybody requires development.  Bengals need to go hard in FA; I'd still like to trade 2 firsts for Linderbaum.

I like the guy a lot, but I dont know about trading 2 firsts - the knock on him is size and 2 1st's puts him as Top 10 value more or less depending on where we finish next season... very risky.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

(02-17-2022, 11:43 PM)Go Cards Wrote: Would think every single O-line player is worried right now, and should be too.

I would look at replacing all five offensive linemen. Maybe one or two might survive but I wouldn’t count on it. Free agency is the way to go just like the Bengals did with upgrading the defense last year.

[Sled21]

(02-17-2022, 08:53 PM)SuperBowlBound! Wrote: Player development is the key for sustaining a winning organization. I remember previous post on here thinking Pratt was going to be a bust and here he is in year 3 developing into one of the better players at his position. Offensive Line is even harder to develop. Frank Pollack has my trust to be able to see either the potential in our young lineman or if it is time to walk away from some of them. The problem is we all watched the Bengals play in the Super Bowl and witnessed how bad the offensive line played. We cannot move forward without protecting our most important asset.

If it was me I think Tre Hopkins and Quinton Spain are as good as they are going to be at this point in their career. They need to be gone next year. Youngsters Trey Hill, Jackson Carmen & D'Ante Smith will still be on this team to develop. That leaves Hakeem Adenji or Isiah Prince to show they belong on this team as more than practice squad players.

Jonah Williams will be a starter next year at LT. I don't see the Bengals spending 23 mil to bring in Terron Armstead. I see them signing Free Agents in the 7.5 to 15 mil range if possible.

That leaves 4 openings for free agents.

I do think they will sign Riley Reiff to come back to play either RT or RG. He seems to be so well respected by this team that I cannot see him being a one and done player.

That brings us down to 3 more quality free agents with one being a center.

I hope we sign at least 2 of them on the first day of free agency and not waiting for the bargain bin.

I was thinking about this yesterday. When do the young guys like Carman and Smith really get to work on improving their game? OTA's are gym short football. Training camp is so watered down now with the rules the Players Association put in place there isn't that much full contact like there used to be. And, during the season practice is mostly installs and walk throughs. These guys need to be spending their summers with Willie Anderson or some other private line coach because during the season isn't going to get it done.

[Sled21]

(02-17-2022, 11:06 PM)puddycat Wrote: Agree.  Don't forget Hopkins is also supposed to be the leader of the line calling out assignments.  Bengals got killed by blitzes and stunts.  Quenton Spain is OK, but a low end starter (IMO).  I'd feel better about him if he is a team leader, or if he could play both OG spots.  Pissing off Aaron Donald after a perfectly legal play on Burrow doesn't count as leadership.
I'm OK with picking over the 2nd tier, especially injury-prove-it and older players who see a chance to win with Burrow.
Last year was the year for plug and play OL.  This year everybody requires development.  Bengals need to go hard in FA; I'd still like to trade 2 firsts for Linderbaum.

That play may have been legal, but Donald put extra juice on that push out of bounds that was not necessary. He was trying to injure Joe pure and simple. I have zero problem with our linemen talking to him about it.

[SuperBowlBound!]

(02-18-2022, 09:25 AM)Sled21 Wrote: I was thinking about this yesterday. When do the young guys like Carman and Smith really get to work on improving their game? OTA's are gym short football. Training camp is so watered down now with the rules the Players Association put in place there isn't that much full contact like there used to be. And, during the season practice is mostly installs and walk throughs. These guys need to be spending their summers with Willie Anderson or some other private line coach because during the season isn't going to get it done.

I never thought about that but you are right. When do they have time ti develop. The thing the young guys do the most that hurts them is balance and leverage. They can get by with that against similar skilled defensive players. When they play top end talent they are no. match. I assume they did drills in College and Pollack has his drills as well but after a few years if you cant get it you are not going to ever do it.
Take Isiah Prince who has the size has all the tools but his draft profile says he has a straight legged paying style creates imbalance and he is below average in creating leverage. I don't think he has shown he can overcome this. 
I do think D'Ante Smith and Jackson Carmen will develop into good starting lineman with time. Just not next year.

[higgy100]

(02-18-2022, 09:25 AM)Sled21 Wrote: I was thinking about this yesterday. When do the young guys like Carman and Smith really get to work on improving their game? OTA's are gym short football. Training camp is so watered down now with the rules the Players Association put in place there isn't that much full contact like there used to be. And, during the season practice is mostly installs and walk throughs. These guys need to be spending their summers with Willie Anderson or some other private line coach because during the season isn't going to get it done.

True. The real key for both is gaining strength and getting in shape. That's really something the team emphasizes to the nth degreee but it's up to the player and that can be done as well with all the other free time they have. Having HOF type legacy players like Willie who yearns to help younger players simply can't be measured.

[jj22]

Approaching the Offensive line the way we did the Defensive line in FA is the way to go. Unfortunately, upgrading the Dline was a 2 offseason process, so that goes back to how realistic is this doable in 1 offseason. We really blew it not starting this rebuild of the Oline (legitimately - ie not signing a couple 30 year olds one being for vet minimum because no other team would sign him) last offseason given we already saw Burrow injured.

[higgy100]

(02-18-2022, 10:38 AM)jj22 Wrote: Approaching the Offensive line the way we did the Defensive line in FA is the way to go. Unfortunately, upgrading the Dline was a 2 offseason process, so that goes back to how realistic is this doable in 1 offseason.

Remember, they started on the OL over a year ago already. Signed a FA RT who simply got hurt and drafted 3 OL. This off season will be huge for the drafted OL as there is finally a winning culture here that can really be contagious and winning means more $$$ so I'd bet the coaches/leaders on this team will be on them to fine tine their bodies. Add in a 1-2 OL FA signings and another couple draft picks and you're not nearly as far back as you think.

[jj22]

(02-18-2022, 10:43 AM)higgy100 Wrote: Remember, they started on the OL over a year ago already. Signed a FA RT who simply got hurt and drafted 3 OL. This off season will be huge for the drafted OL as there is finally a winning culture here that can really be contagious and winning means more $$$ so I'd bet the coaches/leaders on this team will be on them to fine tine their bodies. Add in a 1-2 OL FA signings and another couple draft picks and you're not nearly as far back as you think.

I don't think we can go into 22 relying on the drafted linemen at all unfortunately.

[higgy100]

(02-18-2022, 11:01 AM)jj22 Wrote: I don't think we can go into 22 relying on the drafted linemen at all unfortunately.

Sure you are at least as far as having depth which is enormous. Look, we know the OL is a critical need this year, and as I said you have to get 1-2 FA OL, but you can't just draft players annually in middle rounds and all because they don't produce in season 1 you give up on them. Look at 2-3 of the Bengals LB's drafted 2-3 years ago.

Every team drafts like this and takes players that are either the best player at that pick. have ability that is 2-3 rounds better but they were either injured, maturity issues, off-the-field issues or are still just very young.

[jj22]

Burrow will be broke in half while awaiting for them to "develop". We don't have that time or luxury.

I'd feel better if any of our drafted lineman 1st -5th rounds have developed in the last 10 years. But they haven't. I'm not sure we can suddenly think they will. Or I guess plan as if they will.

It's going to be even harder to draft starting, "can't miss" Olineman selecting towards the end of each round.

[3wt]

(02-18-2022, 09:27 AM)Sled21 Wrote: That play may have been legal, but Donald put extra juice on that push out of bounds that was not necessary. He was trying to injure Joe pure and simple. I have zero problem with our linemen talking to him about it.

100%

I remember when players stood around when Palmer got knocked down (in a preseason game I think) and thinking, this team does not deserve to go anywhere.

It's worth the penalty to let the other team know what their boundaries are, that harming our leader will not be tolerated.  

It was not clean.  It was legal.

Big difference.