If Burrow is causing so many of these sacks...

[*bengalfan74*]

(02-18-2022, 09:26 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Improving the offensive line will allow for more checkdown options for Joe Burrow.  

Here’s how:  If the center, guards, and tackles do their job then it frees a tight end or a running back to become the checkdown receiver.  Right now Joe needs the tight end and running back to backfill the big five up front who aren’t able to provide adequate pass protection.  Free those guys up to run shallow checkdown routes and life will immediately improve.

Joe isn’t “causing” sacks per se.

Excellent point

[KillerGoose]

(02-18-2022, 09:32 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: That's right

I'd love to see a stat if there is one for how many of our between the tackles run plays got stuffed for 2 yards or less. How many of our runs when everybody and their brother knew a run was coming got stuffed ? So on, so on.

The Bengals had 248 runs that were between the tackles and 64 of those runs (25.8%) went for less than two yards. League average for this stat is 27.6%, so Cincinnati was slightly better than average. 

[*bengalfan74*]

(02-18-2022, 09:39 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: The Bengals had 248 runs that were between the tackles and 64 of those runs (25.8%) went for less than two yards. League average for this stat is 27.6%, so Cincinnati was slightly better than average. 

Wow

Would have guessed we were at the bottom

[NATI BENGALS]

I would hate to see a clip of all the Dalton throw-aways. Wasted plays.

It's the NFL. Holding on to the ball after your drop back gets risky. Burrow does because he is trying to make something happen.

I would prefer he make something happen and not throw it away. That comes with risk. He is figuring out what kinds of risks to take. I would imagine he will get even better at that and the OL will get even better and then we will be balling out of control.

[George Cantstandya]

But here we are again, the same old argument spanning multiple threads that has been going on for years sadly. Fix the damn O-line. But what is the fix? Trying to do so via the draft? Free agency? Or both? I feel both but the Bengals draft second to last this year and have a bad track record recently drafting O-line. So that puts a lot of weight on free agency.

I don't think the Bengals are going to cheap out given this year's success. However, keep in mind free agency is a two way street. Free agents have to want to come here. They can't be forced like drafted players. I only bring this up because I have seen so many arguments, "We should have signed (big name free agent) but the Bengals didn't try." So perhaps if the Bengals don't sign for example a top free agent guard it wasn't for lack of trying, maybe he felt he fit better with another team.

[Shake n Blake]

(02-18-2022, 09:30 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: It's a mix of the offensive line and QB. QBs always share some responsibility for sacks, good or bad. A QB can't be sacked unless unless he is holding the ball is the basic idea behind that. 

YEAR     SK%     Lg. Avg.    % Difference
2016       6.7%     5.8%         15%
2017       7.2%     6.4%         12.5%
2018       6.3%     6.42%       -2%
2019       7.2%     6.7%         7%
2020       7.6%     5.9%         28%
2021       9.5%     6.2%         53%

Over that time span, the Bengals largely hovered around league average/below average. In Burrow's two years, they have shot to well below average/awful category. Is some of this due to talent? Yeah, of course. Is some of this due to QB? Yes, as well. They go hand-in-hand. Cincinnati needs to put better offensive linemen around Burrow, but there are some things that Burrow can do to clean it up as well. 

2020 wasn't as drastic though, and it fell in line with most of our previous years. This year we were much more aggressive as an offense with the addition of Chase, therefore we were probably worrying a lot less about masking line deficiencies.

Burrow definitely causes some of his own sacks as all QBs do. I just haven't seen any compelling evidence that - rather than this being a case of an aggressive offense further exposing an already bad line - that it's more Joe's fault, and we're going to give up 50 sacks regardless, because that's just Joe.

Apologies for the run on sentence.

There's definitely things Joe can do to avoid some of these sacks. I'm just saying that before we go changing Joe, we should have a pretty air tight line without multiple guys grading in the 40s.

To simplify what I'm trying to convey here, let's say 50 of the sacks were on the line and 20 were on Joe/the offense being aggressive. I'd rather get the line to where it's allowing 25 sacks than to ask Joe to tone it down just to cut out 10-15 sacks.

Our offense being so dynamic was a key reason we did so well last year. Get the line fixed and don't change a thing. For now, of course.

[KillerGoose]

(02-18-2022, 09:51 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 2020 wasn't as drastic though, and it fell in line with most of our previous years. This year we were much more aggressive as an offense with the addition of Chase, therefore we were probably worrying a lot less about masking line deficiencies.

Burrow definitely causes some of his own sacks as all QBs do. I just haven't seen any compelling evidence that - rather than this being a case of an aggressive offense further exposing an already bad line - that it's more Joe's fault, and we're going to give up 50 sacks regardless, because that's just Joe.

Apologies for the run on sentence.

There's definitely things Joe can do to avoid some of these sacks. I'm just saying that before we go changing Joe, we should have a pretty air tight line without multiple guys grading in the 40s.

To simplify what I'm trying to convey here, let's say 50 of the sacks were on the line and 20 were on Joe/the offense being aggressive. I'd rather get the line to where it's allowing 25 sacks than to ask Joe to tone it down just to cut out 10-15 sacks.

Our offense being so dynamic was a key reason we did so well last year. Get the line fixed and don't change a thing. For now, of course.

I think we're on the same page for the most part. The line definitely needs an improvement, there is no way around that. That is step number one. Once you get those guys in the building you can work with Joe on some of his weak points, which I think will naturally improve as he trusts his line more. 

[Joelist]

There are multiple causes here. Obviously talent level particularly on the right side of the line is an issue. At bare minimum a major upgrade at RT and RG is needed. Also it would be good to coach up the backs on proper pass blocking - I don't think I ever before saw a team where over 10 sacks were given up by backs / TEs whiffing on their chips and pickups.

Then we need to evaluate and if needed change the blocking scheme - when you have the constant issues with communication and wrong pickups and blocks we do it's time to ask if the scheme is too complicated for the personnel and if it is change to something they CAN execute.

GET A REAL FULLBACK. Also teach your line how to do good old fashioned drive blocking. Put these together and short yardage improves.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(02-18-2022, 08:41 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Finley isn't even in the league anymore because he wasn't even an NFL-caliber backup. He's just bad at (NFL level) football. As for Brandon Allen and Andy Dalton, rather than do all that math you only needed a couple numbers...

Andy Dalton Bengals Sack%: 6.6  (that's from 2016-2019 only, it was 5.3 from 2011-2015)
Brandon Allen Bengals Sack%: 5.9
Joe Burrow Bengals Sack%: 8.2

That's a significant different, Shake. One that can't be easily waved away from there just being one source of problem.

- - - - - - - -

Andrew Luck's mentality led the Colts to the playoffs his first 3 years in the league, including to the AFC Championship game... it doesn't change the fact that it ended his career. Burrow's had a completely rebuilt knee in year 1 and now an MCL sprain in the other that's taken him down screaming in pain multiple times that he had to play on for 2 months in year 2.

Keep his mentality if you're fine with only 5 years of Joe Burrow. Change his mentality at least some if you actually want 15-20 years of Joe Burrow.

- - - - - -- - - 

...and this is coming from a guy who's been among the loudest for years about needing to fix the OL, so you know this isn't me scapegoating Burrow or anything Shake. These two matters of the OL being awful and Burrow needing to change aren't mutually exclusive.

That's what I'd say as well. Too many free rushers is definitely a big issue. The only caveat is that you don't want to change his killer instinct and calculated risks he takes for the big play. I think it's fair to say he needs to be a bit more calculated so he doesn't take hits his porous oline doesn't cause. 

Fix the oline. When he does have time if it's capable, he needs to learn to make a bit of a safer play to avoid unnecessary hits. My opinion is that he'll be looking at film and catching that. He'll be better next year. Look how well he improved his deep ball this year with an off-season rehabbing a knee. This guy's a student. He can save a few John Wayne plays to prolong his career. I WANT to see 10 years of Joe Burrow in stripes.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(02-18-2022, 08:47 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Have there been plays where Joe has tried to do to much and hung on to long and caused his own sack ? yes

But those plays account for maybe 3.5% of his sacks, I made the percentage up so don't blow a gasket stat freaks. Point is that's a very small % of the problem.

Like the OP says the real problem is the Oline has sucked for years now. The 2015 draft and 2017 or whatever when we got Price has gutted the Oline. What's the famous quote "we traded for the 10th highest paid tackle in the NFL" who quit on the team. Anyways other than him they've pretty much nickel and dimed their way thru trying to put a band-aid on it.

I know I'm somewhat in the minority but IMO we haven't had a real center since Richie Braham save one year like 10 years ago from the one dude, forget his name ? Got hurt and never really came back.

They've got to quit the bargin basement Oline method, that's all there is to it.

You're not in a minority at all. There's a thread about this topic, somewhat. There's an interesting chart on it that shows sacks attributed to #9 is a bit higher than I thought. Higher than 3.5. 

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(02-18-2022, 07:45 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: ...then why did our other QBs take so many over the last 2 years?

In that time frame, Brandon Allen and Ryan Finley combined for:

7 starts
208 pass attempts
20 sacks

If you average those sacks out to 1066 pass attempts (Burrow's attempts in '20-21), it comes out to 102.5 sacks.

How many times was Burrow sacked in those same attempts? 102.

I think Burrow is taking too much blame for a problem that has existed with this team since 2016:

2016 - 41 sacks on 563 attempts
2017 - 40 sacks on 510 attempts
2018 - 37 sacks on 542 attempts
2019 - 48 sacks on 616 attempts
2020 - 48 sacks on 581 attempts
2021 - 74 sacks on 697 attempts

Remember when Dalton got sacked 7 times against the Jets a few years ago? Dalton's game was pre-snap reads and (mostly) quick throws. The type of stuff that should limit sacks...yet even HE was getting sacked at a high rate.

The line is just terrible, as it has been for 6 years now, and it looks even worse when we have a great QB who is aggressive and looking to push the ball downfield, rather than made quick predetermined throws.

Rather than asking Burrow to adjust a mentality that led us to a Super Bowl, maybe the FO should adjust and make this line great for the first time in ages.

The piss poor offensive line is why I was a little less bullish on firing Zac than most. It was that bad. It ranked in the 30s overall for three years. You know it's bad when Dalton was sacked so many times in Pittsburgh, he threw his helmet at the water cooler. While the line isn't that level bad, it's still not adequate.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(02-18-2022, 09:13 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: If y'all want to keep dancing around the real issue, that's fine by me.  However, I'll come right out and say it.  We need an OL that can provide a viable rushing attack.  The point is, nobody believes that the Bengals will run the ball, they don't fear it.  Sure, they catch teams by surprise with some unexpected rushes for nice gains, but when it counts the rush gets stuffed behind the line to gain.

Get some aggressive Mofo's that want to dominate their opponent, and Joe will have a long and illustrious career.  

Exactly. Not only that, it will open up play action, and they'll be able to run more and more plays.

[fredtoast]

(02-18-2022, 08:47 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Have there been plays where Joe has tried to do to much and hung on to long and caused his own sack ? yes

But those plays account for maybe 3.5% of his sacks, I made the percentage up so don't blow a gasket stat freaks. Point is that's a very small % of the problem.

When Burrow got sacked 8 times in the first 2 games he had at least 3 seconds to throw the ball EVERY TIME.

(02-18-2022, 08:47 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Anyways other than him they've pretty much nickel and dimed their way thru trying to put a band-aid on it.

They've got to quit the bargin basement Oline method, that's all there is to it.

This is lame.

"Other than the high paid guy they haven't brought in any high paid guys, derp"

And Having a RT in the top half of the league in salary ($7.5 million) is "bargain basement"?


Come on man, we all agree that the O-line needs help.  But why make shit up to whine about?

But really, what does a guy who can't remember the name of the OC who only allowed 6 sacks in three years as a starter really know about the history of our O-line.  Seems like someone who intentionally forgets the good players we have had so it does not get in the way of whining.