Austin Corbett = Jackson Carmen

[SuperBowlBound!]

Interesting how a Pro Bowl Guard was considered a bust as a second round pick. The Off Line is the hardest position to develop.
I still have hope for Jackson Carmen and D'Ante Smith but for 2022 we need to get FA starters.

https://www.beaconjournal.com/story/sports/pro/browns/2022/02/11/austin-corbett-super-bowl-lvi-starter-rams-browns-nfl-draft-bust-label-bengals-playoffs/6744774001/

[SuperBowlBound!]

(02-19-2022, 02:13 PM)SuperBowlBound! Wrote: Interesting how a Pro Bowl Guard was considered a bust as a second round pick. The Off Line is the hardest position to develop.
I still have hope for Jackson Carmen and D'Ante Smith but for 2022 we need to get FA starters.

https://www.beaconjournal.com/story/sports/pro/browns/2022/02/11/austin-corbett-super-bowl-lvi-starter-rams-browns-nfl-draft-bust-label-bengals-playoffs/6744774001/

The Browns traded a 5th and a 6th round pick to the Bills for their previous 5th round selection Wyatt Teller and a 7th round pick. Teller ends up developing into a Pro Bowl Guard for the Browns.

https://www.beaconjournal.com/story/sports/pro/browns/2019/08/29/browns-trade-for-guard/4349508007/

[Interceptor]

So we should get a couple of "already developed" OL players through FA.

[SunsetBengal]

(02-19-2022, 03:13 PM)Interceptor Wrote: So we should get a couple of "already developed" OL players through FA.

Yes, we need two solid veterans, as well as a couple of good prospects for development.

[SuperBowlBound!]

(02-19-2022, 03:13 PM)Interceptor Wrote: So we should get a couple of "already developed" OL players through FA.

That is literally the million dollar question.

The Bengals are in a bad situation. If they assume the players will be ready next year and they are not the fanbase will go crazy. If they sign 3-4 FA on long term deals and players develop they just wasted a lot of cap space. Being a GM in the NFL is not as easy as it seems. After rewatching the Super Bowl I cannot see how they cannot bring in at t least 2 top Free Agents. Maybe hope Carmen develops. 

• resign Spain - than they could get a Trenton Brown (RT), Ryan Jensen © and possibly Austin Corbett (RG)
• resign Hopkins - than they could get Trenton Brown (RT), Laken Tomlinson (LG) and possibly Austin Corbett (RG)
• resign Reiff (RT) - then they could get Laken Tomlinson (LT), Ryan Jensen © and possibly Austin Corbett (RG)

[WVUHomer]

(02-19-2022, 03:51 PM)SuperBowlBound! Wrote: That is literally the million dollar question.

The Bengals are in a bad situation. If they assume the players will be ready next year and they are not the fanbase will go crazy. If they sign 3-4 FA on long term deals and players develop they just wasted a lot of cap space. Being a GM in the NFL is not as easy as it seems. After rewatching the Super Bowl I cannot see how they cannot bring in at t least 2 top Free Agents. Maybe hope Carmen develops. 

• resign Spain - than they could get a Trenton Brown (RT), Ryan Jensen © and possibly Austin Corbett (RG)
• resign Hopkins - than they could get Trenton Brown (RT), Laken Tomlinson (LG) and possibly Austin Corbett (RG)
• resign Reiff (RT) - then they could get Laken Tomlinson (LT), Ryan Jensen © and possibly Austin Corbett (RG)

Hopkins is under contract for another year, no need to resign.

Top option sounds good but I'd rather try to draft Zion for flexibility to move to C. Honestly looking at more Connor Williams (but would also like Laken), Daniels and Brown (or Moses). 

That gives you strong flexibility. Daniels/Zion could be switched between C/RG until you figure which combo is best and keeping Hopkins gives protection in case Zion is drafted before 31. Line is at least slightly above average which is leaps better than last 5 years.

[SuperBowlBound!]

(02-19-2022, 09:41 PM)WVUHomer Wrote: Hopkins is under contract for another year, no need to resign.

Top option sounds good but I'd rather try to draft Zion for flexibility to move to C. Honestly looking at more Connor Williams (but would also like Laken), Daniels and Brown (or Moses). 

That gives you strong flexibility. Daniels/Zion could be switched between C/RG until you figure which combo is best and keeping Hopkins gives protection in case Zion is drafted before 31. Line is at least slightly above average which is leaps better than last 5 years.

Sorry, I meant if we did not release Hopkins. Good catch!

I have the feeling the Bengals/Burrow really like Spain and Reiff? 
For the most part I think Hopkins, Spain and Reiff are not bad for the regular season
Once you enter the playoffs and face elite defensive fronts consistently it gets dicey.

I don't see how they do not make wholesale changes to this line. We need at least 3 FA's

[Essex Johnson]

(02-19-2022, 02:13 PM)SuperBowlBound! Wrote: Interesting how a Pro Bowl Guard was considered a bust as a second round pick. The Off Line is the hardest position to develop.
I still have hope for Jackson Carmen and D'Ante Smith but for 2022 we need to get FA starters.

https://www.beaconjournal.com/story/sports/pro/browns/2022/02/11/austin-corbett-super-bowl-lvi-starter-rams-browns-nfl-draft-bust-label-bengals-playoffs/6744774001/

Im not sure about develop idea,  I actually would say QB is the hardest to develop, and there are busts in 1/2 round across positions.

Corbert is a nice story but what he did is rare, be like Price doing the same after being traded... what worries me about Carmen is it was a total open competition between mostly young players and he was not able to break through as our 2nd round pick... that was a disappointment but way too early to be some bust label on him, next season though he needs to grab the starter position or I would start to really worry about him. 

[SuperBowlBound!]

(02-20-2022, 04:04 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Im not sure about develop idea,  I actually would say QB is the hardest to develop, and there are busts in 1/2 round across positions.

Corbert is a nice story but what he did is rare, be like Price doing the same after being traded... what worries me about Carmen is it was a total open competition between mostly young players and he was not able to break through as our 2nd round pick... that was a disappointment but way too early to be some bust label on him, next season though he needs to grab the starter position or I would start to really worry about him. 

Buffalo traded Wyatt Teller who turned into a pro bowler for Cleveland. The problem is fans want instant success with their draft picks. WR, RB, TE, K, P, maybe even DE, DT and NT are probably the best positions to translate to the NFL in year 1. Jackson Carmen should have come into camp in better shape. I guess when you are used to being great at every level you have ever played you may take for granted how good you are. That was his mistake. Hopefully, he will learn from that and come back this year in better shape ready to compete for his job. I will give him that opportunity before labeling him a bust. 
I still would not depend on that. I think we need a FA guard as our starter day 1.

[SunsetBengal]

(02-20-2022, 04:04 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Im not sure about develop idea,  I actually would say QB is the hardest to develop, and there are busts in 1/2 round across positions.

Corbert is a nice story but what he did is rare, be like Price doing the same after being traded... what worries me about Carmen is it was a total open competition between mostly young players and he was not able to break through as our 2nd round pick... that was a disappointment but way too early to be some bust label on him, next season though he needs to grab the starter position or I would start to really worry about him. 

Well, as several of us cautioned after last year's draft, taking a chance on a guy with spine issues was really dicey.  Many persisted that he had it fixed, and that the transition to Guard would offer him "new life" at an easier position, where he could just use his physicality to bully his opponents into submission.

However, even when he was healthy, I did not see him flashing much greatness.  Yes, he had a few plays to call highlights, but by and large, he was subpar in pass pro, and adequate at best in run blocking.  The back issue did come back to hamper him, which recovering from whatever course of treatment he undergoes to remedy it, will likely cost him even more valuable developmental time.

I don't want to call a guy a bust after one season, but in my eyes, it ain't looking great for Jackson Carman going forward.  I don't feel like the team should rely on his recovery and development as the answer to the problems at RG.  If I were the Bengals GM, I would be looking for the strongest RG in FA that they could feasibly afford to bring on, as well as charting prospects in the mid rounds of the draft.

[*bengalfan74*]

(02-20-2022, 07:59 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Well, as several of us cautioned after last year's draft, taking a chance on a guy with spine issues was really dicey.  Many persisted that he had it fixed, and that the transition to Guard would offer him "new life" at an easier position, where he could just use his physicality to bully his opponents into submission.

However, even when he was healthy, I did not see him flashing much greatness.  Yes, he had a few plays to call highlights, but by and large, he was subpar in pass pro, and adequate at best in run blocking.  The back issue did come back to hamper him, which recovering from whatever course of treatment he undergoes to remedy it, will likely cost him even more valuable developmental time.

I don't want to call a guy a bust after one season, but in my eyes, it ain't looking great for Jackson Carman going forward.  I don't feel like the team should rely on his recovery and development as the answer to the problems at RG.  If I were the Bengals GM, I would be looking for the strongest RG in FA that they could feasibly afford to bring on, as well as charting prospects in the mid rounds of the draft.

Agree

Can Carman develop into a good guard ? maybe But I'm not willing to bet Joe's knees on it. Get a solid upper tier free agent.

[SuperBowlBound!]

(02-21-2022, 12:19 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Agree

Can Carman develop into a good guard ? maybe But I'm not willing to bet Joe's knees on it. Get a solid upper tier free agent.

I am all for going into next season with our newly acquired starting Free Agents. 

Let's not give up on Carman, Trey Hill & D'Ante Smith and draft a bunch more Off Lineman.

We need to trust the process.

If the best player available at 31 is a center or RT get him. If it is a DT get him but of it is a QB or WR then pass.

Austin Corbett (RG), Connor Williams (LG) and Ryan Jensen © are looking better and better to me.

[*ochocincos*]

(02-19-2022, 02:13 PM)SuperBowlBound! Wrote: Interesting how a Pro Bowl Guard was considered a bust as a second round pick. The Off Line is the hardest position to develop.
I still have hope for Jackson Carmen and D'Ante Smith but for 2022 we need to get FA starters.

https://www.beaconjournal.com/story/sports/pro/browns/2022/02/11/austin-corbett-super-bowl-lvi-starter-rams-browns-nfl-draft-bust-label-bengals-playoffs/6744774001/

I've never been willing to give Carman the bust label this year. He's a mid-2nd-rounder who was changing positions, scheme, and dealing with some injuries. It's natural for a player in that type of situation to need some time to acclimate.
So what the Bengals need is a proven veteran they can be confident in covering the spot for the next couple years while Carman continues to develop.

[Hammerstripes]

Carman is the RT of the future. I don't think he's going to be at guard in the offseason. I also don't think he necessarily starts next year, but I would put money on him being on the outside moving forward.

[SuperBowlBound!]

(02-21-2022, 07:39 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: Carman is the RT of the future.  I don't think he's going to be at guard in the offseason.  I also don't think he necessarily starts next year, but I would put money on him being on the outside moving forward.

Interesting if they do that. Do you feel like wasted his first year here?

What about D'Ante Smith?

Would love to know how Pollack critiques each lineman in the offseason.

[*ochocincos*]

Note that Corbett may not have been a good fit in Cleveland's scheme, which is why he's been (much) more successful since joining the Rams.
Also, I expect that a 2nd round draft pick will start taking over a full time starting role in their second year. Corbett did that when he was traded to the Rams. Maybe Carman will do the same. Don't want another Sample where he's a backup through basically his whole rookie contract.

[Benton]

I don't think Carmen's a bust. It takes a couple years (normally) to develope linemen. He just wasn't ready.

Realistically, we need a vet or two, along with a couple draft picks with the intent that they'll be ready in 3-4 years when those larger veteran contracts expire.

[*ochocincos*]

(02-21-2022, 07:39 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: Carman is the RT of the future.  I don't think he's going to be at guard in the offseason.  I also don't think he necessarily starts next year, but I would put money on him being on the outside moving forward.

If that happens, it feels like a waste to put him inside his rookie year.

[*ochocincos*]

(02-22-2022, 03:37 PM)Benton Wrote: I don't think Carmen's a bust. It takes a couple years (normally) to develope linemen. He just wasn't ready.

Realistically, we need a vet or two, along with a couple draft picks with the intent that they'll be ready in 3-4 years when those larger veteran contracts expire.

And to be fair, the Bengals DID have a veteran slotted for all the OL starting spots.
Williams-Spain-Hopkins-XSF-Reiff

XSF and Reiff just ended up with big injuries that forced the backup young talent to start when they weren't prepared to.

This is where having some veteran backups help though.
Maybe we'll see some cheaper veterans added specifically to be backups.

[SuperBowlBound!]

(02-21-2022, 07:39 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: Carman is the RT of the future.  I don't think he's going to be at guard in the offseason.  I also don't think he necessarily starts next year, but I would put money on him being on the outside moving forward.

I really believe that Carmen and D'Ante Smith will make big jumps in year 2. I was hoping for better results in year 1 so we would not feel like we have to blow a lot of salary cap space protecting Burrow. If they believe in Carman and D'Ante they could sign a couple 1-2 year FA deals without blowing to much salary cap. 
If it was my call I would not take the chance on that. I would sign the best FA's we can find even if that mean losing Bates. We have gambled enough with Burrows health and are lucky he will be ready for day 1 next year.