Tag Window Open - Bates Tagged

[BengalsBong]

Your FS should lead your team in INT he had 1 this year we need to get better at that spot.

[*ochocincos*]

(02-23-2022, 04:14 PM)BengalsBong Wrote: Your FS should lead your team in INT he had 1 this year we need to get better at that spot.

The guy with the most INTs in the league this past year was a CB...
Out of the Top 20 players in INTs, only 6 were safeties.
Poyer
Simmons
McKinney
Byard
Hyde
Rapp

Only 11 players had 5 or more INTs this past season.

Also, you're being a bit harsh on Bates. Every season prior to 2021, he had 3 each season. So the 1 is an outlier.

[SunsetBengal]

(02-23-2022, 05:07 PM)ochocincos Wrote: The guy with the most INTs in the league this past year was a CB...
Out of the Top 20 players in INTs, only 6 were safeties.
Poyer
Simmons
McKinney
Byard
Hyde
Rapp

Only 11 players had 5 or more INTs this past season.

Also, you're being a bit harsh on Bates. Every season prior to 2021, he had 3 each season. So the 1 is an outlier.

The guy made All-Pro his 3rd year in the league.  Sure, his stats were down the first half of the season, but he also battled back from a neck injury and looked like an All-Pro down the stretch and through the playoffs.  

[*bfine32*]

I really don't care if they tag, sign, or don't sign JB. Sure he's serviceable but I don't put him in among the elite.

I'd be curious to see what we do with Tre Flowers if we bring him back. Seems we kinda used him a a TE cover specialists there toward the end. Dude is bigger and faster than bates.

IF I were in charge I'd place the Transition Tag on him

[*Go Cards*]

(02-22-2022, 11:39 PM)bfine32 Wrote: That's the transition tag

That is exactly what I'd use then. 

But should add disclaimer that if the money is not used on O-line then I'd want Bates back in stripes. 

[*bfine32*]

(02-23-2022, 08:13 PM)Go Cards Wrote: That is exactly what I'd use then. 

But should add disclaimer that if the money is not used on O-line then I'd want Bates back in stripes. 

I listen to Pat Kirwan regularly and he cannot figure out why teams don't use the transition tag more. It's a win-win. The player knows he can get the best offer on the market and then his current team can match or let him walk. 

It used to be useless until they removed the "poison pill"  but now it makes a lot of sense .

[*ochocincos*]

(02-23-2022, 08:24 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I listen to Pat Kirwan regularly and he cannot figure out why teams don't use the transition tag more. It's a win-win. The player knows he can get the best offer on the market and then his current team can match or let him walk. 

It used to be useless until they removed the "poison pill"  but now it makes a lot of sense .

I think it's because with the regular franchise tag, you know you have that player and for what amount.
Transition tag is more variable, as it allows a team to make an offer that's higher than the transition tag amount.
For example, look at Alex Mack getting tagged with Browns back in 2014.
Transition tag was $10 mill, but franchise tag was $11.6 mill.
There was a possibility then that Mack could receive an offer greater than even $11.6 mill, which would have forced the Browns to either match or let him walk.
Regular Franchise Tag would have removed any offers and set the price just for $1.6 mill more.

[Nicomo Cosca]

And now Reader is tweeting out about paying Bates. It’s going to be a very unpopular decision in that locker room if they don’t…

[*Go Cards*]

(02-23-2022, 08:32 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I think it's because with the regular franchise tag, you know you have that player and for what amount.
Transition tag is more variable, as it allows a team to make an offer that's higher than the transition tag amount.
For example, look at Alex Mack getting tagged with Browns back in 2014.
Transition tag was $10 mill, but franchise tag was $11.6 mill.
There was a possibility then that Mack could receive an offer greater than even $11.6 mill, which would have forced the Browns to either match or let him walk.
Regular Franchise Tag would have removed any offers and set the price just for $1.6 mill more.

True but just think it leaves a player salty towards the team if he can make 18 million verses 12 million. 

That is a half a million a month more money !  

Feel if they've played well enough to get tagged then they should not get low balled by the team for which they laid it on the line for.

Would be different if the team can sign the player later after the tag is removed but just don't think the Bengals will have that kind of extra money without neglecting the O-line.
Just feel its a raw deal for the player and in this league ones career could end any day. 

Yet do get how it financially benefits the team.  

[Frank Booth]

(02-23-2022, 08:56 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: And now Reader is tweeting out about paying Bates. It’s going to be a very unpopular decision in that locker room if they don’t…

Bates impresses me with how much his bullshit spreads to everyone in the locker room

almost like a cancer

[*bfine32*]

(02-23-2022, 08:32 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I think it's because with the regular franchise tag, you know you have that player and for what amount.
Transition tag is more variable, as it allows a team to make an offer that's higher than the transition tag amount.
For example, look at Alex Mack getting tagged with Browns back in 2014.
Transition tag was $10 mill, but franchise tag was $11.6 mill.
There was a possibility then that Mack could receive an offer greater than even $11.6 mill, which would have forced the Browns to either match or let him walk.
Regular Franchise Tag would have removed any offers and set the price just for $1.6 mill more.

I understand the reasoning behind the Franchise Tag, but if you're not planning on using the Franchise Tag I see no negative to using the transition Tag

[*Go Cards*]

(02-23-2022, 08:56 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: And now Reader is tweeting out about paying Bates. It’s going to be a very unpopular decision in that locker room if they don’t…

Nobody will be happy if Bates is not re-signed and even more will be unhappy if they don't fix the O-line with experienced players. 

Its a tough spot for everybody involved

[jeremydc]

Bates has been awesome but at this point, the focus should be on the o line. Trade em

[*michaelsean*]

(02-23-2022, 08:57 PM)Go Cards Wrote: True but just think it leaves a player salty towards the team if he can make 18 million verses 12 million. 

That is a half a million a month more money !  

Feel if they've played well enough to get tagged then they should not get low balled by the team for which they laid it on the line for.

Would be different if the team can sign the player later after the tag is removed but just don't think the Bengals will have that kind of extra money without neglecting the O-line.
Just feel its a raw deal for the player and in this league ones career could end any day. 

Yet do get how it financially benefits the team.  

I don’t think there is usually that big of a difference between what you would get for the franchise tag versus what you could get on the open market.

[samhain]

(02-23-2022, 08:56 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: And now Reader is tweeting out about paying Bates. It’s going to be a very unpopular decision in that locker room if they don’t…

I don't care for the tactics at all.  It's still a business with limited amount of money to spend.  I like Bates and want him back, but if his agent tries to strong arm the family for a 17-18 mil per contract, then I'm perfectly okay with letting him walk. 

Lots of difficult decisions will need to be made to keep the young core here intact.  The player's job is to play, the ownership's job is to build and improve the roster.  If Bates gets anything close to top safety money, then they shouldn't guarantee more than 20%.  He'll be a prime target for cap relief when the time comes to re-up with Chase and Burrow.

[casear2727]

(02-23-2022, 09:02 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I understand the reasoning behind the Franchise Tag, but if you're not planning on using the Franchise Tag I see no negative to using the transition Tag

What?  Under the franchise tag, a team that declines to match the offer gets two first-round draft picks as compensation. Under transition, the team that loses the player gets no compensation

[Au165]

Losing Bates would be catastrophic for a couple reasons. The main reason is the defense, and specifically the secondary, carried us down the stretch and through the playoffs. A lot of the exotic looks we did against KC are possible because the safeties we have are experienced and in general good players. The other issue is because we don’t even have a potential replacement on the roster right now. Had we had a mid round safety learning in the background for a year or two we’d have more leverage but we don’t.


This is not an either or situation, the idea the line has to suffer to keep Bates is false. I’m sure the reason the deal isn’t done is the reason that in reality we probably won’t sign a ton of big free agents (not won’t sign any but some people expecting a ton will be let down) and that is upfront signing bonus. I’ve said it in another thread but cash does play a factor in this and as wild as it seems the Bengals while worth a lot don’t have massive cash reserves like some teams. This isn’t an excuse just the reality that gets lost in the discussion of cap, as cap is just accounting not a real life.

[Au165]

(02-23-2022, 09:43 PM)casear2727 Wrote: What?  Under the franchise tag, a team that declines to match the offer gets two first-round draft picks as compensation. Under transition, the team that loses the player gets no compensation

Letting other teams negotiate market rate through a transition tag has a lot of value when player and teams aren’t close because of disagreement on value. The issue with a franchise tag is that no team is going to give up two picks and a massive deal for all but a very few select players league wide so there is no real “market check”. Franchise tagging a player in the end gets you no closer to a long term deal if the player still lives in an imaginary world of what their value is.

I’m a big fan of the transition tag in cases where value is hard to establish but that I don’t believe is the issue here. I believe structure of deal, mainly guarantees and signing bonus are the major issues not the average per year.

[*Go Cards*]

(02-23-2022, 09:38 PM)michaelsean Wrote: I don’t think there is usually that big of a difference between what you would get for the franchise tag versus what you could get on the open market.

Maybe usually, but the rumors swirling suggest otherwise with Bates, thinking 15-16 million at least on open market myself. 

If not then sign him yesterday. 

[*bfine32*]

(02-23-2022, 09:43 PM)casear2727 Wrote: What?  Under the franchise tag, a team that declines to match the offer gets two first-round draft picks as compensation. Under transition, the team that loses the player gets no compensation

You apply the franchise tag no other team can make an offer; there's nothing to match.