Tag Window Open - Bates Tagged

[THE PISTONS]

I feel like it's going to be hard to sign Bates. He likely wants paid based off of his playoff performance. The Bengals likely don't want to pay that much based on his regular season play. He ranked somewhere in the 30s according to pff. So definately better safeties out there.

[Au165]

(03-07-2022, 10:56 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I think "in the same year" is carrying that statement in the tweet. 

Bengals tagged Nugent in 2012, he played on the tag, and then signed a 2 year deal in March of 2013.

Correct, they don't usually use it as a place holder to continue negotiations but rather a place holder to work through to the next off season. In reality, Bates could realistically be looking at a double tag situation because that $12.9 million number is pretty low relative to the market and where it is heading. Then the 2nd year tag would only be 120% of the tag this year most likely, so we'd be talking about a very friendly $15.48 million. I honestly think if I am the Bengals I straight up tell him I am tagging him the next two years or we can go ahead and do a 4 year deal at an average of $15.5-$16 a year with $35 million guaranteed i.e. the Justin Simmons contract with a slight bump.

[*bfine32*]

(03-07-2022, 10:39 PM)ochocincos Wrote: How does tagging him give the Bengals more cash in hand?
A multi-year deal is more flexible with how it affects the cap year to year.
Tag requires full cap of $13.5 mill, fully guaranteed.

(03-07-2022, 10:40 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: It actually doesn’t. They could have spread that money out more on a long term deal.

It can help to sign another player long term. JB is not counting against our cap beyond this season.

It does limit our ability to sign players to 1-year contracts, but it does make it easier to sign FAs to long term deals. 

[Au165]

(03-07-2022, 11:10 PM)bfine32 Wrote: It can help to sign another player long term. JB is not counting against our cap beyond this season.

It does limit our ability to sign players to 1-year contracts, but it does make it easier to sign FAs to long term deals. 

Kind of, the tag counts for all $12.9 this year. In a lot of extensions, because of the signing bonus they actually tend to be pretty shallow the first year in base salary and then cap hit then get heavier across the remaining years and the bonus is always prorated across the life. For example, Justin Simmons contract only had a $6 Million or so dollar hit year 1 but then jumped to 18.5 across the back 3 so while it averaged 15.25 per year that first year was actually far below that specifically because the Broncos needed the money year 1 for some flexibility. 

So in reality a long term deal probably could open up significant money this year, but that isn't the path we are heading at this point. 

[*bfine32*]

(03-07-2022, 11:13 PM)Au165 Wrote: Kind of, the tag counts for all $12.9 this year. In a lot of extensions, because of the signing bonus they actually tend to be pretty shallow the first year in base salary and then cap hit then get heavier across the remaining years and the bonus is always prorated across the life. For example, Justin Simmons contract only had a $6 Million or so dollar hit year 1 but then jumped to 18.5 across the back 3 so while it averaged 15.25 per year that first year was actually far below that specifically because the Broncos needed the money year 1 for some flexibility. 

So in reality a long term deal probably could open up significant money this year, but that isn't the path we are heading at this point. 

I get that; it's why I said the tag of JB can allow us to sign others to a long term, where moneys came after the first year. 

The biggest difference is we can walk away from JB after this year with no money owed. That can allow out FO to be more comfortable spreading it out over someone else.  

[THE PISTONS]

(03-07-2022, 11:08 PM)Au165 Wrote: Correct, they don't usually use it as a place holder to continue negotiations but rather a place holder to work through to the next off season. In reality, Bates could realistically be looking at a double tag situation because that $12.9 million number is pretty low relative to the market and where it is heading. Then the 2nd year tag would only be 120% of the tag this year most likely, so we'd be talking about a very friendly $15.48 million. I honestly think if I am the Bengals I straight up tell him I am tagging him the next two years or we can go ahead and do a 4 year deal at an average of $15.5-$16 a year with $35 million guaranteed i.e. the Justin Simmons contract with a slight bump.

I think that's the issue. I doubt the Bengals are offering him 15-16 million a year.

My guess is their offer is closer to 10-11 million a year.

Honestly 15 million plus is a lot for Bates. He's above average during the regular season most years and was elite 1 year.

[THE PISTONS]

My guess is we'll see the Bengals draft a safety somewhere in Rounds 1-3 to develop for a year and replace Bates.

[Au165]

(03-07-2022, 11:23 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I think that's the issue. I doubt the Bengals are offering him 15-16 million a year.

My guess is their offer is closer to 10-11 million a year.

Honestly 15 million plus is a lot for Bates. He's above average during the regular season most years and was elite 1 year.

Negative, I have been told they tried offering him a similar deal as last year but structure was the issue last year and this year he wanted more to go with the rising cap/inflation (not sure what the actual number was but doubt it was the 18-20 reported somewhere). This was third hand knowledge from someone who talked to someone who talked to someone involved, which is what you usually get out of the combine discussions, so take it for what it's worth.

[THE PISTONS]

(03-07-2022, 11:29 PM)Au165 Wrote: Negative, I have been told they tried offering him a similar deal as last year but structure was the issue last year and this year he wanted more to go with the rising cap/inflation (not sure what the actual number was but doubt it was the 18-20 reported somewhere). This was third hand knowledge from someone who talked to someone who talked to someone involved, which is what you usually get out of the combine discussions, so take it for what it's worth.

So if you had to guess, what number did they offer him?

[Nicomo Cosca]

(03-07-2022, 11:24 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: My guess is we'll see the Bengals draft a safety somewhere in Rounds 1-3 to develop for a year and replace Bates.

They probably should either way. Bell could leave after next season, and we have absolutely nothing behind him and Bates.

[Au165]

(03-07-2022, 11:32 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: So if you had to guess, what number did they offer him?

Somewhere around 16.5 give or take a half million but not nearly the long term guarantees that Simmons got in DEN. The cap inflation is going to be on the minds of a lot of agents and players this FA. You are going to see some big numbers for big players resetting markets a bit for what you expect for above average players at a lot of positions.

[THE PISTONS]

(03-07-2022, 11:37 PM)Au165 Wrote: Somewhere around 16.5 give or take a half million but not nearly the long term guarantees that Simmons got in DEN. The cap inflation is going to be on the minds of a lot of agents and players this FA. You are going to see some big numbers for big players resetting markets a bit for what you expect for above average players at a lot of positions.

That's a hefty apy for Bates.

[Au165]

(03-08-2022, 12:05 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: That's a hefty apy for Bates.

Honestly it really isn’t when you look at the massive jump we saw in the cap this year and then you assume 11 per increase going forward. You should never look to much at the number but rather the percentage of cap they count against at any given time.

[Soonerpeace]

(03-07-2022, 11:37 PM)Au165 Wrote: Somewhere around 16.5 give or take a half million but not nearly the long term guarantees that Simmons got in DEN. The cap inflation is going to be on the minds of a lot of agents and players this FA. You are going to see some big numbers for big players resetting markets a bit for what you expect for above average players at a lot of positions.

I should find out tomorrow

[Bengalholic]

The guaranteed money is most likely what's killing any potential deal ay this point. If you look at Budda Baker (who has same agent as Jessie)...56% oh his contract is guaranteed. 

Adams and Simmons also both have over 50% of their deals guaranteed. I think it's safe to assume Jesse is seeking the same type of guaranteed money as those 3 guys...or at least very close to to it.

By comparison, when it comes to the guaranteed portions of the Bengals current biggest deals: Boyd 40%, Reader 37%, Waynes 36%, Hendrickson 27% and Mixon 21%. 

[Murdock2420]

(03-08-2022, 02:34 AM)Bengalholic Wrote: The guaranteed money is most likely what's killing any potential deal ay this point. If you look at Budda Baker (who has same agent as Jessie)...56% oh his contract is guaranteed. 

Adams and Simmons also both have over 50% of their deals guaranteed. I think it's safe to assume Jesse is seeking the same type of guaranteed money as those 3 guys...or at least very close to to it.

By comparison, when it comes to the guaranteed portions of the Bengals current biggest deals: Boyd 40%, Reader 37%, Waynes 36%, Hendrickson 27% and Mixon 21%. 

As much as the Bengals are changing their way of doing things in so many important areas, the lack of guaranteed money in contracts for them is still a real issue for some players.

[Bilbo Saggins]

(03-08-2022, 02:34 AM)Bengalholic Wrote: The guaranteed money is most likely what's killing any potential deal ay this point. If you look at Budda Baker (who has same agent as Jessie)...56% oh his contract is guaranteed. 

Adams and Simmons also both have over 50% of their deals guaranteed. I think it's safe to assume Jesse is seeking the same type of guaranteed money as those 3 guys...or at least very close to to it.

By comparison, when it comes to the guaranteed portions of the Bengals current biggest deals: Boyd 40%, Reader 37%, Waynes 36%, Hendrickson 27% and Mixon 21%. 

It's shocking to me that the guaranteed portions are so low for those contracts.  The Bengals have historically chosen to honor contracts unless the player is severely underperforming.  From the outside looking in I've personally wondered why they don't offer a whole lot higher of a percentage of guaranteed money in their contracts based upon this tendency.  If your tolerance is that high for holding onto players through thick and thin, there seems to be a lot less comparative risk compared to teams that tend to cut/restructure guys more often.

Now we reach the next phase.  Does Jessie Bates start giving off AJ Green vibes about not wanting to play on the tag?  Or pretending not to realize that it's logical for the Bengals to utilize all available tools in order to win games and assemble the best roster that they can with cap constraints?  I really like Jessie Bates and find him to be exciting to watch, so I'm hoping that they work out a satisfactory deal.  But...if he starts giving off those vibes, it'd probably be best to trade him JMHO.  This defense is already expensive and by design gives up a lot of yards.  Without JB3 they might have to make it more of a vanilla cover 3, but they can't afford to hamstring their cap situation for years to come or deal with malcontents on the roster if we're being shrewd.  

And with that, a brief history of the old "tag and trade" routine:
https://lionswire.usatoday.com/lists/history-of-the-tag-and-trade-outcomes-for-franchise-players-and-teams/  

[kevin]

Without reading all the posts. It is Official. Bates is the Franchise Tag Player.

I'm all for keeping Bates because of his age. He isn't much older than players in The Draft. Isn't he 24 ?

Often the Tag means the player and his agent are only around one more year. I hope that The Bengals and Bates and his Agent can use the Tag to work out a longer contract so he is still here in 2023 and beyond. Bates Motel is a good young Safety, already considered one of the best young Safeties in the NFL. Considering Coach Taylor plays a 4-2-5 so often, you need Safeties to tackle RBs if you are going to go with so few Linebackers. I get that he doesn't want Linebackers trying to cover Receivers. Still, it makes talented young Safety Bates Motel a player Bengals need to keep.

It's no big surprise they used the Franchise Tag on Bates Motel. Yes, I like Bates Motel from Psycho horror movie. Often people regret going in the area of The Bates Motel. Not a good place to go. In his time here, Bates has made his area of the field a place opposing teams regret having gone into. As Bates Motel makes opposing teams hopes go down the drain.

I'm glad we have Bates one more year to go with our Super Bowl Defense. My hope is they use the extra time to work out a longer contract before start of season. At age 24, I think his best years are still coming. He should become one of the most dominate defensive backs in The NFL.

Some said NO, but I have posted wanting Bates tagged. Bengals Need Him. He is only 24 and too young and talented to lose this fast.

So we had Combine. Didn't take long on Franchise Tag. Next up is Free Agency next week as the next KEY DATE. Then Spring Workouts, then The Draft. The Bengals Train back to The Super Bowl is already off and rolling as Key Off Season Dates are coming up fast.

GO BENGALAS

[Bengalfan4life27c]

Bates is really good sure his regular season especially early was sub par. He played like an all pro when it mattered Best S in Bengals history. He is worth 4 years 60 million. Guarantee 50. We could do worse Tre Waynes XSF most recently. Simple pay your younger players their worth regardless of position. We made this mistake with Steinbach Zeitler even Marvin Jones

[*ochocincos*]

(03-08-2022, 12:41 PM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: Bates is really good sure his regular season especially early was sub par. He played like an all pro when it mattered Best S in Bengals history. He is worth 4 years 60 million. Guarantee 50. We could do worse Tre Waynes XSF most recently. Simple pay your younger players their worth regardless of position. We made this mistake with Steinbach Zeitler even Marvin Jones

There is absolutely no way the Bengals would guarantee $50 mill.
Simmons, who signed a 4-year, $61 mill deal about this time last year, only received $35 mill in guaranteed money.

I'd guess the Bengals would offer $20-30 mill guaranteed.