What Pollack wants in OL

[Bengalbug]

(03-03-2022, 12:47 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: The Packers are $50M over the cap. They aren’t trading for Boyd. I don’t understand why some think the Bengals can get a 2nd round pick in return for what they consider is an overpriced WR.

Teams can create cap space, just not the bengals apparently. Boyd isn’t over priced, but if we can’t afford OL, like some say, e is a luxury we apparently cannot afford. With a window the packers have, boyd would be better than any wR the packers could land in the draft (at their spot).

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(03-03-2022, 01:03 AM)Bengalbug Wrote: Teams can create cap space, just not the bengals apparently. Boyd isn’t over priced, but if we can’t afford OL, like some say, e is a luxury we apparently cannot afford. With a window the packers have, boyd would be better than any wR the packers could land in the draft (at their spot).

Boyd was drafted at 55. Randall Cobb was drafted at 64.

[J24]

(03-03-2022, 12:47 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: The Packers are $50M over the cap. They aren’t trading for Boyd. I don’t understand why some think the Bengals can get a 2nd round pick in return for what they consider is an overpriced WR.

1.) They will be under the cap by the time free agency starts!

2.) How is Boyd overpriced he is a 1000 yard caliber  WR who is being paid 10 Million a year? That's a bargain if anything!

[Bengalbug]

(03-03-2022, 01:23 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Boyd was drafted at 55. Randall Cobb was drafted at 64.

Cobbs rookie season 25 - 375 -1
Boyd’s rookie season 54 -603 -1

I’d imagine that boyd is 80+, 1000+, 6+ As the number 2 in GB.

The packers don’t have the time to let players develop 2-3 years.

Cobb is also past his prime, while boyd is very much in it, so you wouldn’t expect drop off. Boyd could still have his best seasons ahead of him, as a number 1/2.

Am I missing something?

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(03-03-2022, 08:42 AM)Bengalbug Wrote: Cobbs rookie season 25 - 375 -1
Boyd’s rookie season 54 -603 -1

I’d imagine that boyd is 80+, 1000+, 6+ As the number 2 in GB.

The packers don’t have the time to let players develop 2-3 years.

Cobb is also past his prime, while boyd is very much in it, so you wouldn’t expect drop off. Boyd could still have his best seasons ahead of him, as a number 1/2.

Am I missing something?

I gave you an example of the type of WR they could draft in that range.

[Bengalbug]

(03-03-2022, 08:59 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I gave you an example of the type of WR they could draft in that range.

Sure, but I stand by my statement. No one they could draft in that range would produce like Tyler boyd next year.

Someone will probably say aman rs st brown type, and sure I guess it could happen. But those happen 1/100.

[Bengalpool]

(03-02-2022, 11:39 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Okay, that’s $25M for three players. Releasing Hopkins saves $6M. Adding Norwell and Moses pushes two low level contracts out of the top 51 saves approximately $1.5M. Effective cap hit is < $18M.

Leaving $31M?

Release Waynes and that gives them $41M. There is no reason why they can’t do that.

But Fred said...

[Bengalpool]

(03-03-2022, 12:02 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Daniel Jeremiah NFL.com
Pick
17
Los Angeles Chargers
Los Angeles Chargers
SELECTION: Bernhard Raimann, OT
School: Central Michigan
Year: Senior

I’m higher on Raimann than most evaluators, but I believe in his play strength (his hands and core strength jump off the screen) and instincts. He starts Day 1 at right tackle and would team with 2021 first-rounder Rashawn Slater to give the Chargers excellent bookends to protect Justin Herbert.

Todd McShay

31. Cincinnati Bengals

Bernhard Raimann, OT, Central Michigan

Do we even need to explain this one? Cincinnati allowed 55 sacks in 2021 (third most), and then it took 19 more across four playoff games. Its 48.8% pass block win rate was 30th in the NFL. The season ultimately ended on a pressure, as Rams defensive tackle Aaron Donald got to quarterback Joe Burrow on the Bengals' final offensive play of the Super Bowl. Burrow is one of the best young passers in the game, and Cincinnati must, must, must clean up the offensive line to keep him healthy and let him operate the offense with more ease. Raimann has a powerful upper body and shuts down pass-rushers when he gets his hands inside

Mel Kiper has Raimann going to the Dolphins at 29.

Raimann is also going to the Chiefs and Raiders in mock drafts.

Good thing these are just mock drafts 

[Bengalbug]

(03-03-2022, 09:08 AM)Bengalpool Wrote: But Fred said...

Freddy knows best.

[Soonerpeace]

(03-03-2022, 12:24 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Pull up Billy Price’s draft profiles for me.

Bucky Brooks has Raimann going to us now too.

[*ochocincos*]

(03-02-2022, 09:00 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Understdable and why Reiff will be resigned. Before he got hurt ( that counts the two games he played hurt) Reiff’s PFF grade was top 15. But as far as Raimman he’s ridiculously athletic. You need to read up on Lane Johnson of the eagles. Same deal. Raimman is the best OT prospect in years. Top  Free Agent tackles are 20 million. They’ve got to develop one and the new OL assistant coached Raimann. They are crossing their fingers he’s there.

Top 15 in what? Tackles?
Definitely not true if that's what you meant.

Reiff was a 67.3 PFF grade, which was 49th among OTs in the regular season.
He had a 70.0 run block but a mediocre 58.4 pass block.

Personally, I wouldn't be happy if Reiff was the starting RT again. He doesn't upgrade the OL.
He maintains the status quo.
Who covers the OG spots? A mid-tier OG and...who else?
I'm fine upgrading C, but it doesn't sound like any other spot would actually be upgraded.

Also, where are you getting that Raimann is the "best OT prospect in years"? He's not even as good as Penei Sewell was coming out last year. If he was, he'd be projected a Top 15, if not Top 10 pick.

[Soonerpeace]

(03-03-2022, 12:01 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Top 15 in what? Tackles?
Definitely not true if that's what you meant.

Reiff was a 67.3 PFF grade, which was 49th among OTs in the regular season.
He had a 70.0 run block but a mediocre 58.4 pass block.

Personally, I wouldn't be happy if Reiff was the starting RT again. He doesn't upgrade the OL.
He maintains the status quo.
Who covers the OG spots? A mid-tier OG and...who else?
I'm fine upgrading C, but it doesn't sound like any other spot would actually be upgraded.

Also, where are you getting that Raimann is the "best OT prospect in years"? He's not even as good as Penei Sewell was coming out last year. If he was, he'd be projected a Top 15, if not Top 10 pick.

Like I said in my post. Before his injury ( his PFF grade plummeted the last 2 games he played injured on it) and was top 15. End of story

Prospect is somewhat tied to upside. Sewell was not really a prospect he was a bonafide predicted star.

[casear2727]

(03-03-2022, 12:01 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Top 15 in what? Tackles?
Definitely not true if that's what you meant.

Reiff was a 67.3 PFF grade, which was 49th among OTs in the regular season.
He had a 70.0 run block but a mediocre 58.4 pass block.

Personally, I wouldn't be happy if Reiff was the starting RT again. He doesn't upgrade the OL.
He maintains the status quo.
Who covers the OG spots? A mid-tier OG and...who else?
I'm fine upgrading C, but it doesn't sound like any other spot would actually be upgraded.

Also, where are you getting that Raimann is the "best OT prospect in years"? He's not even as good as Penei Sewell was coming out last year. If he was, he'd be projected a Top 15, if not Top 10 pick.

Absolutely all of this.   Im going to wait see what happens but our guy Sooner has some interesting takes and states things as if they are absolute facts.  Im sure he is a great guy but I hope he is just overstating his opinions and his declarations are not true regarding the oline.  

[*ochocincos*]

(03-03-2022, 12:28 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Like I said in my post. Before his injury ( his PFF grade plummeted the last 2 games he played injured on it) and was top 15. End of story

Prospect is somewhat tied to upside. Sewell was not really a prospect he was a bonafide predicted star.

Do you have ability to prove that?
I do pay for PFF, but I don't pay for the tier that allows me to see week-to-week.
If you don't have access to that tier either, maybe you saw someone post it somewhere online?
I just personally don't believe you because a player doesn't drop from Top 15 to 49th after playing injured for two games.
Look at Hopkins if you want an example. He played way better in 2nd half of season compared to first half, but his cumulative grade for the full season was still not great because of how poorly he did the first half.

As for Raimann's upside, sure he may have good upside, but what have you seen in Pollack that gives you high confidence he's going to turn a project into a star?
I personally haven't seen him turn any draft pick into a good starter yet.

EDIT - I found an article on Cincy Jungle from Oct 21 that says the following:

Quote:Reiff hasn’t exactly been the second coming of Willie Anderson, but he has been the upgrade he was brought in to be. Among starting right tackles, Reiff ranks 13th in Pro Football Focus’ Pass Blocking Efficiency rating. This is impressive considering Reiff has been charged with allowing three sacks—the fifth-most at his position—since PBE weighs sacks allowed more than hurries and quarterback hits allowed. Aside from a handful of drive-altering blunders, Reiff has done his best to live up the hype.

https://www.cincyjungle.com/2021/10/21/22735975/bengals-film-room-riley-reiff-vs-detroit-lions-2021-nfl-week-6

If that's what you were going off, that's not nearly as good as you made it sound.
1) Being 13th in pass blocking efficiency rating among starting RTs only. That's basically middle of pack.
2) He had already allowed 3 sacks after 6 games, which was 5th most at his position. Not exactly upper-tier performance.
3) Pass block efficiency rating is not the only thing the cumulative rating is factoring in.

So unless you have some way to prove your point, it sounds more like Reiff was more middle-of-the-pack at RT (and only when fully healthy), not a Top 15 OT.

[Soonerpeace]

(03-03-2022, 01:41 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Do you have ability to prove that?
I do pay for PFF, but I don't pay for the tier that allows me to see week-to-week.
If you don't have access to that tier either, maybe you saw someone post it somewhere online?
I just personally don't believe you because a player doesn't drop from Top 15 to 49th after playing injured for two games.
Look at Hopkins if you want an example. He played way better in 2nd half of season compared to first half, but his cumulative grade for the full season was still not great because of how poorly he did the first half.

As for Raimann's upside, sure he may have good upside, but what have you seen in Pollack that gives you high confidence he's going to turn a project into a star?
I personally haven't seen him turn any draft pick into a good starter yet.

I looked earlier on validating my comment. Reiff was not top 15 before his injury that’s for sure. However not sure it was PFF I saw this. But I’m convinced it was top 15 or around 15 of right tackles. Regardless Reiff’s rating nose dived when he got hurt and tried to play. I don’t think he’s the answer but neither is spending 18 million. I think that in addition to improving the OL they also want to improve the depth. The 17 game season plus more in the playoffs is rough. This year proved that a key injury is about all that separates teams. I think they’ve got a number to spend on the entire OL position group. I don’t think they want a huge drop off if there’s an injury.

As far as Raimann I hear you about Pollack and development. But… why did they add a third OL coach? I really think Taylor is underrated ( he’s still forming his reputation obviously) at identifying weaknesses and improving the team. He moved quickly in filling spots. But I’m not so sure hiring the third OL guy isn’t about either developing or evaluating. Brown and Zac talk all the time. I’m sure they discussed it. Brown loves Pollack. Maybe he’s not the best at evaluating or developing. Hiring a third OL coach smacks of a popular coach you want to succeed and doing whatever it takes to help him. And…. the new OL coach has a history with Raimann.

All I know is based on what I’ve heard from Duke,Zac, and others at the combine is that they want to keep this team intact. JMHO I think they resign a bunch of players. Actually I disagree with FredToast a lot but I think he and a few others have a handle on the money aspect of our FA. I just don’t think the money is going to be there for a huge infusion of new starters on the OL.

[*ochocincos*]

(03-03-2022, 02:18 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: I looked earlier on validating my comment. Reiff was not too 15 before his injury that’s for sure. However not sure it was PFF I saw this. But I’m convinced it was top 15 or around 15 of right tackles. Regardless Reiff’s rating nose dived when he got hurt and tried to play. I don’t think he’s the answer but neither is spending 18 million. I think that in addition to improving the OL they also want to improve the depth. The 17 game season plus more in the playoffs is rough. This year proved that a key injury is about all that separates teams. I think they’ve got a number to spend on the entire OL position group. I don’t think they want a huge drop off if there’s an injury.

As far as Raimann I hear you about Pollack and development. But… why did they add a third OL coach? I really think Taylor is underrated ( he’s still forming his reputation obviously) at identifying weaknesses and improving the team. He moved quickly in filling spots. But I’m not so sure hiring the third OL guy isn’t about either developing or evaluating. Brown and Zac talk all the time. I’m sure they discussed it. Brown loves Pollack. Maybe he’s not the best at evaluating or developing. Hiring a third OL coach smacks of a popular coach you want to succeed and doing whatever it takes to help him. And…. the new OL coach has a history with Raimann.

All I know is based on what I’ve heard from Duke,Zac, and others at the combine is that they want to keep this team intact. JMHO I think they resign a bunch of players. Actually I disagree with FredToast a lot but I think he and a few others have a handle on the money aspect of our FA. I just don’t think the money is going to be there for a huge infusion of new starters on the OL.

I completely agree with you on the bolded.
Reiff is serviceable-to-solid, but he's not close to elite by any means.
I definitely don't think (or even want) the Bengals will spend $12+ mill on an OT.
I think the most they'd spend is $10 mill.

I like Morgan Moses and Trent Brown more than Reiff for RT, and neither should be crazy expensive.

You bring up that new OL coaching assistant, which I didn't factor in. Maybe he's the missing key. I just don't have that confidence yet with the current OL coaches to really develop a draft pick though.

I've also been one of the posters mentioning there isn't going to be as much money flying around as some think/hope.
Bengals will have to make some hard decisions and/or let some positions stay in current state or try having a draft pick upgrade.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-03-2022, 12:19 AM)Synric Wrote: Where would you put Bernhard Raimann in the 2021 OT draft class? Is he closer to Samuel Cosmi or D'Ante Smith? With his poor technique he's closer to Smith.

Hands are low late slow and outside in pass protection that never varies. He will be abused early in the NFL by any technical rusher.

Poor technique on top of the shorter arms? No thanks on Raimann if this is the case.

(03-03-2022, 12:28 AM)pulses Wrote: nfl.com compares Salyer to Spain believe it or not......I like Spain but we need someone better than another Spain.

Eh, it isn't a bad comparison when Spain is playing well he is pretty damn good. I just am down on him after the postseason
where he was just really bad going against Simmons, Chris Jones and Donald. But these guys abuse a lot of IOL. I think Salyer
plays meaner than Spain and he has good technique with high upside while playing against top competition in the SEC.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(03-03-2022, 01:50 AM)J24 Wrote: 1.) They will be under the cap by the time free agency starts!

2.) How is Boyd overpriced he is a 1000 yard caliber  WR who is being paid 10 Million a year? That's a bargain if anything!

They will be in cap compliance by the start of the season. Adding a $7M cap will make reducing that $50M more difficult.

I don’t think Boyd is overpriced as a 3rd WR in this offense. But, I’ve been reading more and more people suggest we trade him because he is an overpriced slot receiver.

[Soonerpeace]

(03-03-2022, 01:10 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Absolutely all of this.   Im going to wait see what happens but our guy Sooner has some interesting takes and states things as if they are absolute facts.  Im sure he is a great guy but I hope he is just overstating his opinions and his declarations are not true regarding the oline.  

I’m pretty convinced on how the Bengals will go. It’s about 90% opinion and about 10% pretty solid info. So take it how you want. We’ll certainly see. I have no idea if they are targeting Raimann but these mock drafters do get inside info. Raimann is sure showing up a lot to us at #31.

As far as the absolutes I still say I expect a top center and medium priced guard in FA and draft a tackle at #31. I expect a corner at #63.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(03-03-2022, 09:06 AM)Bengalbug Wrote: Sure, but I stand by my statement. No one they could draft in that range would produce like Tyler boyd next year.

Someone will probably say aman rs st brown type, and sure I guess it could happen. But those happen 1/100.

What about DK Metcalf?