Yes we could sign Oline and CJ Jackson

[casear2727]

Ok, so after all the worry about the escrow and the cap I'll provide a sliver of hope that could make the oline only folks and the sign JC Jackson folks happy.  

The last 2 years the Bengals have spent more cash than cap - these are two totally different things.  

I have seen numbers from 70 to 120 million cash under their year-to-year avg spending.  And we dont have much in cash coming off the books this year.  Due to drafting next to last we save a ton on rookie bonus cash. We will be around 6M this year where as Chase received around 20M by himself.

As we all know, tagging Bates hurts us a few million as to cap space. But it actually helps us with cash. Had we extended Bates he most likely would have cost us around $25M in upfront cash bonus money - so we save that.

Since we have this cash, and have spent it the past 2 years, we could lower the guaranteed portion of free agent demands like JC and Jensen by offering large upfront signing bonuses that would be prorated over the term of of the contract with a small balance into next year.  JC wants 56M guaranteed over the life of his contract, we could offer 45M guaranteed with a 25M signing bonus upfront, also lowering his cap hit.

$52M in cap space after cutting Waynes & Hopkins and a minimum of $70m in cash to spend allows us several options and the possibility to keep the escrow account in check for Burrows smash after this season.  

We also have a very easy restructure with Trey Hendrickson that wont impact him and have low impact on us.  He has a 6M roster bonus coming up. We could convert this to a signing bonus (still pays him 6M) freeing up 4M in cap space leaving 2M in dead money.

There are ways to make things happen.

Jensen and another very solid pickup be it guard or tackle will help tremendously. We still need Carmen and another bench guy/rookie to step up most likely, or pickup a cheap vet minimum on Spain again.

JC, Awuzie, Bates, Bell, and Hilton could be the #1 secondary in the NFL.



Andre Perrotta is an excellent source for cap/cash Bengals info.

[*bfine32*]

Nice work. I listen to Pat Kirwan pretty regularly and he breaks things like this down. The Bengals do love to front load things, so if we can pay JC upfront I could dig it. The oline only crowd needs to realize that there are other spots on the team that needs addressed.

[CardCounterChris]

I'm not the O Line only crowd, but I am in the O Line priority crowd. I don't mind us grabbing a CB2, but between needing a corner, IDL, and OL, it seems to me to make more sense to go after a CB2 for 6m to 8m a year. Additionally, zone CBs are better scheme fits for us, and there are a few CBs that meet both the scheme and salary I outlined above.

Rasul Douglas
Casey Hayward
DJ Reed

If we get a talent like JC Jackson, I won't be upset. But I don't value the need for JC Jackson compared to these other options as highly as having the difference to grab another DT or O Lineman.

[casear2727]

(03-09-2022, 10:48 PM)CardCounterChris Wrote: I'm not the O Line only crowd, but I am in the O Line priority crowd.  I don't mind us grabbing a CB2, but between needing a corner, IDL, and OL, it seems to me to make more sense to go after a CB2 for 6m to 8m a year.  Additionally, zone CBs are better scheme fits for us, and there are a few CBs that meet both the scheme and salary I outlined above.

Rasul Douglas
Casey Hayward
DJ Reed

If we get a talent like JC Jackson, I won't be upset.  But I don't value the need for JC Jackson compared to these other options as highly as having the difference to grab another DT or O Lineman.

I've been on Rasul for awhile now.

Hayward is still solid, although aging a little.

DJ reed is very effective but his little size seems to go against Lou's ideal CB.


Darious Williams of the Rams and Chavarius Ward of KC are both very solid depending on the dollar amount.

Carlton Davis is one no one is talking about most likely because of price tag but he is a big tough physical corner.

Steve Nelson is very serviceable.

Donte Jackson may be the best value around 10M.


I assume Bradberry is on the watch list in case he is cut....?

The 2 I have been told about personally are Ahkello Witherspoon (Steelers) not a lot of snaps but very productive when did play and very inexpensive.  Some PITT guys seem to believe we have an inside track for some reason, he did play with Awuzie in college. 

On the opposite end the Carolina insiders think Gilmore's people will reach out to us as they say he mentioned us in a nonprofessional setting regarding an opportunity to win a ring.  


All of these with the exception of Witherspoon (an unknown) are an upgrade over Apple in my opinion.

[CardCounterChris]

(03-09-2022, 11:33 PM)casear2727 Wrote: I've been on Rasul for awhile now.

Hayward is still solid, although aging a little.

DJ reed is very effective but his little size seems to go against Lou's ideal CB.


Darious Williams of the Rams and Chavarius Ward of KC are both very solid depending on the dollar amount.

Carlton Davis is one no one is talking about most likely because of price tag but he is a big tough physical corner.

Steve Nelson is very serviceable.

Donte Jackson may be the best value around 10M.


I assume Bradberry is on the watch list in case he is cut....?

The 2 I have been told about personally are Ahkello Witherspoon (Steelers) not a lot of snaps but very productive when did play and very inexpensive.  Some PITT guys seem to believe we have an inside track for some reason, he did play with Awuzie in college. 

On the opposite end the Carolina insiders think Gilmore's people will reach out to us as they say he mentioned us in a nonprofessional setting regarding an opportunity to win a ring.  


All of these with the exception of Witherspoon (an unknown) are an upgrade over Apple in my opinion.

Yea and I think that's the bigger issue.  There are a lot of good options at CB and we do need someone.  I'm just not sure going for JC is the best use of the cap. I'd be happy to welcome him in, but there are a lot of good CB2 options that let us retain more of our guys or get more people brought into the mix.
Some of the best Bengals signings last year, like Hendrickson and Hilton weren't at the top of the board for their position, but Cincy got great deals and worked them in.  I'd like to see more of those sort of moves.

[casear2727]

(03-09-2022, 11:42 PM)CardCounterChris Wrote: Yea and I think that's the bigger issue.  There are a lot of good options at CB and we do need someone.  I'm just not sure going for JC is the best use of the cap. I'd be happy to welcome him in, but there are a lot of good CB2 options that let us retain more of our guys or get more people brought into the mix.
Some of the best Bengals signings last year, like Hendrickson and Hilton weren't at the top of the board for their position, but Cincy got great deals and worked them in.  I'd like to see more of those sort of moves.

I dont disagree.  Next week will be very interesting.

[*ochocincos*]

(03-09-2022, 10:17 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Ok, so after all the worry about the escrow and the cap I'll provide a sliver of hope that could make the oline only folks and the sign JC Jackson folks happy.  

The last 2 years the Bengals have spent more cash than cap - these are two totally different things.  

I have seen numbers from 70 to 120 million cash under their year-to-year avg spending.  And we dont have much in cash coming off the books this year.  Due to drafting next to last we save a ton on rookie bonus cash. We will be around 6M this year where as Chase received around 20M by himself.

As we all know, tagging Bates hurts us a few million as to cap space. But it actually helps us with cash. Had we extended Bates he most likely would have cost us around $25M in upfront cash bonus money - so we save that.

Since we have this cash, and have spent it the past 2 years, we could lower the guaranteed portion of free agent demands like JC and Jensen by offering large upfront signing bonuses that would be prorated over the term of of the contract with a small balance into next year.  JC wants 56M guaranteed over the life of his contract, we could offer 45M guaranteed with a 25M signing bonus upfront, also lowering his cap hit.

$52M in cap space after cutting Waynes & Hopkins and a minimum of $70m in cash to spend allows us several options and the possibility to keep the escrow account in check for Burrows smash after this season.  

We also have a very easy restructure with Trey Hendrickson that wont impact him and have low impact on us.  He has a 6M roster bonus coming up. We could convert this to a signing bonus (still pays him 6M) freeing up 4M in cap space leaving 2M in dead money.

There are ways to make things happen.

Jensen and another very solid pickup be it guard or tackle will help tremendously. We still need Carmen and another bench guy/rookie to step up most likely, or pickup a cheap vet minimum on Spain again.

JC, Awuzie, Bates, Bell, and Hilton could be the #1 secondary in the NFL.



Andre Perrotta is an excellent source for cap/cash Bengals info.

It’s worth pointing out that the guaranteed money doesn’t have to be paid all up front. In fact, many teams choose to spread the signing bonus across the duration of the contract, reducing the upfront cash given out.


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[casear2727]

(03-10-2022, 12:02 AM)ochocincos Wrote: It’s worth pointing out that the guaranteed money doesn’t have to be paid all up front. In fact, many teams choose to spread the signing bonus across the duration of the contract, reducing the upfront cash given out.


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Thats a cap v cash issue.

We can prorate signing bonus for cap purposes but 100% of all guaranteed money must go into escrow with cash immediately.

[*ochocincos*]

(03-10-2022, 12:15 AM)casear2727 Wrote: Thats a cap v cash issue.

We can prorate signing bonus for cap purposes but 100% of all guaranteed money must go into escrow with cash immediately.

It does? Do you have a source that confirms that?


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[casear2727]

(03-10-2022, 12:28 AM)ochocincos Wrote: It does? Do you have a source that confirms that?


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Im pretty sure it's 100% of guaranteed money (-$2M)  and 35% of salaries, I'll look it up.


Correction:

The current change seems to be all guaranteed money -15M deductible increased from the 2M, and 35% of salaries.


There is one change in the new CBA that could help, however. For years, teams have cited the antiquated "fully funded rule" as a reason they couldn't guarantee large sums of money in contracts. That rule, which dates to the wobbly early days of the league when there was some doubt about teams' abilities to reliably pay their players, requires a team to hold in escrow an amount of money equivalent to the amount of guaranteed money (minus a $2 million deductible) in a player's contract.

So, when Kirk Cousins signed for three years and $84 million fully guaranteed two years ago, the Vikings had to put $82 million into an escrow account (the guaranteed amount minus the $2 million deductible). The new deal will raise the deductible to $15 million in the years 2020-28 and to $17 million in 2029 and 2030. The thought is that this could create more fertile ground for players and agents to demand and receive more guarantees in contracts.


https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/28901832/nfl-cba-approved-players-get-new-deal-how-expanded-playoffs-schedule-work

[Luvnit2]

(03-10-2022, 12:15 AM)casear2727 Wrote: Thats a cap v cash issue.

We can prorate signing bonus for cap purposes but 100% of all guaranteed money must go into escrow with cash immediately.

Bengals have a ton of equity so cash can easily be borrowed as well. There are not many businesses that shared TV revenue also goes to player bonuses and salary

No NFl team is cash poor when they can go borrrow a billion dollars with a few phone calls

Bengals franchise value was 2.2 billion in 2021 and my guess value only went up in 2022

[*ochocincos*]

(03-10-2022, 12:52 AM)casear2727 Wrote: Im pretty sure it's 100% of guaranteed money (-$2M with each contract)  and 35% of salaries, I'll look it up.

It took me having to search more specifically, but I finally found it in here https://broncoswire.usatoday.com/2016/06/14/millers-long-term-contract-escrowed-cash-not-guaranteed-money-is-the-obstacle/

Regardless, Bengals have been around for over 50 years and run rather fiscally, so they should have sufficient cash to handle any necessary guarantee reserves like the other teams do.


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[casear2727]

(03-10-2022, 12:56 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Bengals have a ton of equity so cash can easily be borrowed as well. There are not many businesses that shared TV revenue also goes to player bonuses and salary

No NFl team is cash poor when they can go borrrow a billion dollars with a few phone calls

Bengals franchise value was 2.2 billion in 2021 and my guess value only went up in 2022

Lots of things the Bengals could do and dont do which is frustrating, they are worth 3B now... we can hope so. Of course to hear Hobson tell it we are poverty stricken.

[fredtoast]

(03-10-2022, 12:02 AM)ochocincos Wrote:  In fact, many teams choose to spread the signing bonus across the duration of the contract, reducing the upfront cash given out.

That is not a signing bonus.  That is yearly salary.

[casear2727]

(03-10-2022, 12:59 AM)ochocincos Wrote: It took me having to search more specifically, but I finally found it in here https://broncoswire.usatoday.com/2016/06/14/millers-long-term-contract-escrowed-cash-not-guaranteed-money-is-the-obstacle/

Regardless, Bengals have been around for over 50 years and run rather fiscally, so they should have sufficient cash to handle any necessary guarantee reserves like the other teams do.


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Having a billionaire able to dump in cash at anytime is nice to have and allows for teams like the Rams to say the hell with the cap, they know they can get out of it with cash.  Not sure we got it like that. After listening to Hobson my expectations have dropped considerably.

[fredtoast]

(03-10-2022, 12:56 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: No NFl team is cash poor when they can go borrrow a billion dollars with a few phone calls

Maybe they don't want to pay pay interest on a billion dollar loan.

And this is not like a company borrowing money to buy more equipment that produces more income.  This is just borrowing money to defer cap space.  There is not added return on investment.

[phil413]

Well done, send this to Hobspin.

[casear2727]

(03-10-2022, 01:04 AM)fredtoast Wrote: That is not a signing bonus.  That is yearly salary.

He is correct if talking impact on the cap, a signing bonus is evenly prorated over the number of contract years, (5 year limit i do believe). But not as to the cash requirement into escrow.

[Gdale_Bengal]

I’d go get Stephon Gilmore and draft a cb early. Assuming Gilmore can still play at a high level and his price is reasonable that could make tge secondary in the top 5 or 3 this year.

[casear2727]

(03-10-2022, 01:09 AM)phil413 Wrote: Well done, send this to Hobspin.

Yeah right, if his job is to lower expectations he is doing it perfectly...