Is Jackson Carman "Your" Starting LG

[*jason*]

(04-09-2022, 01:13 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I'm of the weird idea that you adjust expectations based on performance.

Carman fit right in on a terrible line last year and in no way shape or form should be gifted a starting role next year.

I'd sign Spain to compete (Spain was solid last year, we have some revisionist history going on), OR draft a guy to compete...OR draft a Center and bump Karras over to LG with Carman becoming a high end bench guy with some upside.

I have no problem with competition, and I agree on Spain. It's become a parroted talking point that he wasn't good. I'm just pointing out that Carman didn't play nearly enough to be given up on, and there is no way that he's a finished product... And yeah; those first coupla rounds are for drafting starters and cornerstones. I think it's the coaches' job to get those guys in a position to be starting.

[*ochocincos*]

(04-09-2022, 02:34 AM)Whatever Wrote: Carman is an unknown at this point.  We've seen a small sample size of a guy recovering from injury who was not put in a good situation to succeed.  He was asked to move from LT to RG and switch both positions and sides at the same time.

However, any draft pick you add will be an unknown, too.  It's just as easy to speculate that a 2nd round pick from a historically good OL class with a year in the NFL will beat out a fringe 1st rounder from a weaker class as a rookie.  

Spending a 1st on a LG is unappealing because it's wasteful.  If the draft pick wins the job, we just blew a 2nd round pick on a guy who will be a backup his entire rookie contract.  If Carman wins, we just spent a 1st on a guy who will ride the pine his first three years, then might get a chance to play if Carman isn't resigned.  OL is especially bad in this situation because you don't rotate OL like you do at other positions.  

This is why I'd like to not spend more than a 3rd round pick on an OL this year. About the only guys I'd be willing to do so would be Linderbaum or Johnson, but that'd be because of BPA.

I've always had the philosophy that Rds 1-2 should be guys you're looking to become starters by the time they are going into their 3rd year.
If you draft a new IOL super early, you're basically relegating Carman or the new draft pick to backup for 3 years given all of Karras, Cappa, and Carman are all signed through 2024.

People just need to accept that Carman was not a Pro-Ready RG when drafted. He was coming in injured (like many Bengals picks in recent years), plus he was going through a pretty big position change (LT to RG).
The best course of action is to bring in a decent vet to compete with Carman for a year. If the vet wins out, then Carman only has to be a backup for one more year. If the vet has to be a backup, that's fine too, since they'd only be on a 1-year deal. Someone like Spain (or Ereck Flowers) would be perfect for that. Ideally someone who can play multiple positions.

[NUGDUKWE]

(04-10-2022, 08:27 AM)jason Wrote: I have no problem with competition, and I agree on Spain. It's become a parroted talking point that he wasn't good. I'm just pointing out that Carman didn't play nearly enough to be given up on, and there is no way that he's a finished product... And yeah; those first coupla rounds are for drafting starters and cornerstones. I think it's the coaches' job to get those guys in a position to be starting.

I would be fine if we resign Spain but I would also understand moving on from him. When you get beat so bad on the last play of the Superbowl your QB doesn't have 1 sec to throw to a wide open Ja'marr Chase it sticks in people's minds. So much talk of the right side of the line but the left had its own struggles. Jonah gave up 8 sacks and that's not where it needs to be and at least one of those was completely on Spain so there may have been more that he contributed to as well. 

I'm still for drafting an OL in Rd 1 or trading back and getting one in the early to mid 2nd. I just think there's no way we don't draft an offensive lineman in this draft and if we're gonna do that we should do it early and get a potential starter. I don't think that's giving up on Carman it's just increasing the overall talent of our OL room.

[NUGDUKWE]

(04-10-2022, 02:06 PM)ochocincos Wrote: This is why I'd like to not spend more than a 3rd round pick on an OL this year. About the only guys I'd be willing to do so would be Linderbaum or Johnson, but that'd be because of BPA.

I've always had the philosophy that Rds 1-2 should be guys you're looking to become starters by the time they are going into their 3rd year.
If you draft a new IOL super early, you're basically relegating Carman or the new draft pick to backup for 3 years given all of Karras, Cappa, and Carman are all signed through 2024.

People just need to accept that Carman was not a Pro-Ready RG when drafted. He was coming in injured (like many Bengals picks in recent years), plus he was going through a pretty big position change (LT to RG).
The best course of action is to bring in a decent vet to compete with Carman for a year. If the vet wins out, then Carman only has to be a backup for one more year. If the vet has to be a backup, that's fine too, since they'd only be on a 1-year deal. Someone like Spain (or Ereck Flowers) would be perfect for that. Ideally someone who can play multiple positions.

We've added some good pieces to the oline but our depth overall is not good. I by no means think we have to reach in the 1st but if Zion, Green or Linderbaum are there we should take them. I'd also be willing to trade back to get a couple of extra day 2 picks so we could go OL, CB in 2 then Dline in 3 and maybe one of the luxury picks like a 4th WR or maybe TE although I'd prefer a LB or Safety over TEN.

I again don't think drafting an OL early is giving up on Carman it's just increasing the talent level competition and our depth. Looking back Carman wasn't pro ready but our coaches sure thought he was or they thought adding Reiff was the only upgrade needed. I saw some flashes out of Carman and I want him to win the job but I also don't want to count on that happening.

[fredtoast]

(04-09-2022, 03:10 PM)CloeHokie Wrote:  Could he improve? Sure. Is that a guarantee or even a better than 50/50 chance of that? No.

Where did you come up with this "less than 50% chance"?  What is that based on?

From what I see a large majority of second round picks improve significantly over their rookie seasons.  More develop into solid players than complete busts. 

BTW I think you are a little too obsessed with the PFF rating.  PFF ratings are not very accurate.  With other positions it is easy to see because we have other stats to show production, but with O-linemen too many people consider it the holy gospel.

[007BengalsFan]

(04-09-2022, 08:43 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: If memory serves Spain graded out (pff) in several games as our best Olineman, 60' 70's. And some peeps want to act like he is just above hot garbage. 

I still can't figure out why they haven't brought him back ? Considering our other ummmm backups.

Spain's PFF grade was around 25 for the Super Bowl and 46 for the entire playoffs.  That is horrible  He got beat like a drum when it mattered most and he had to play against better defenses.  He was a large part of the Super Bowl loss.  If the Bengals make it back to the playoffs, is this a guy you think we can count on?  You want the same talent on the Oline that lost the Super Bowl?

If you bring Spain back at LG and you have Williams at LT and you have Karras at center who posted a PFF very close to Hopkins at center when Karras played center, you would have about the same level of talent at those positions as you did last year.  Thats not going to cut it.  You cant go out there with the same level of play at LT, LG and Center and think the line doesnt need more work.  I think the Bengals need to move Karras to guard where he played much better than at center and bring in better talent at center like Tretter.  That would make the line much better.  Having Karras at center and bringing back Spain is a much worse scenario.

[Frank Booth]

(04-10-2022, 11:54 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: Spain's PFF grade was around 25 for the Super Bowl and 46 for the entire playoffs.  That is horrible  He got beat like a drum when it mattered most and he had to play against better defenses.  He was a large part of the Super Bowl loss.  If the Bengals make it back to the playoffs, is this a guy you think we can count on?  You want the same talent on the Oline that lost the Super Bowl?

If you bring Spain back at LG and you have Williams at LT and you have Karras at center who posted a PFF very close to Hopkins at center when Karras played center, you would have about the same level of talent at those positions as you did last year.  Thats not going to cut it.  You cant go out there with the same level of play at LT, LG and Center and think the line doesnt need more work.  I think the Bengals need to move Karras to guard where he played much better than at center and bring in better talent at center like Tretter.  That would make the line much better.  Having Karras at center and bringing back Spain is a much worse scenario.

Spain struggled against the 2 best DT’s in the league (Donald and Simmons), so therefore he is bad and shouldn’t be brought back?

That’s the same logic the Eli Apple haters have when Cooper Kupp torched him in the super bowl

[bengals1969]

(04-11-2022, 03:53 AM)Frank Booth Wrote: Spain struggled against the 2 best DT’s in the league (Donald and Simmons), so therefore he is bad and shouldn’t be brought back?

That’s the same logic the Eli Apple haters have when Cooper Kupp torched him in the super bowl

Having guys like him in the playoffs is how we don’t go far. Spain isn’t the answer to any questions the Bengals are asking. We need a dominant line.

Carmen it seems is making the coaches happy with his off season efforts. If he keeps that up he’ll earn a shot at the starting LG spot. At 31 they need to focus on the best player out there not with a QB on their depth chart. He’s a next year starter most likely and next year the openings are large and growing.

[XenoMorph]

(04-11-2022, 03:46 PM)bengals1969 Wrote: Having guys like him in the playoffs is how we don’t go far.  Spain isn’t the answer to any questions the Bengals are asking. We need a dominant line.

Carmen it seems is making the coaches happy with his off season efforts. If he keeps that up he’ll earn a shot at the starting LG spot. At 31 they need to focus on the best player out there not with a QB on their depth chart. He’s a next year starter most likely and next year the openings are large and growing.

Spain isnt the long term answer no.....   But based on last year Carman isnt ready to even think about starting.

[Frank Booth]

(04-11-2022, 03:46 PM)bengals1969 Wrote: Having guys like him in the playoffs is how we don’t go far.  Spain isn’t the answer to any questions the Bengals are asking. We need a dominant line.

Carmen it seems is making the coaches happy with his off season efforts. If he keeps that up he’ll earn a shot at the starting LG spot. At 31 they need to focus on the best player out there not with a QB on their depth chart. He’s a next year starter most likely and next year the openings are large and growing.

pfffff lmfao

I know he didnt play well against the titans and rams but he was cincy's  2nd best lineman all year. I will not hear any Spain slander

[KillerGoose]

(04-11-2022, 04:03 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: pfffff lmfao

I know he didnt play well against the titans and rams but he was cincy's  2nd best lineman all year. I will not hear any Spain slander

He was also carted off the field at the end of the season and was likely playing hurt. Spain played very well last year. I would be happy to have him back. 

[northernbengal]

(04-07-2022, 03:33 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Don't have to convince me, i've been on the sign him now train, forget about the OL and draft DDDDDDDDDDD


Don't give 2 cents about Carman's fweelings right now, I'd rather he have hurt feelings than to put him out there and watch Burrow get hurt.

anyways, i'm a big fan of drafting a player a year before you actually need him. Too many times players come in and have unrealistic expectations put on them to be high caliber guys right off the bat. I'd rather they spend a year developing then you know what you have.

Its not about Carman's feelings, its about optimizing your draft capital and cap space. In years Burrow will have a large increase in Cap hit and we need to be drafting replacements to fill other positions. Waiting a year will allow us a better evaluation of Carman. If we have issues we can trade or sign someone during the season. A rookie guard this year will probably not be any better. If he has issues you sign a stopgap next year before Burrow's cap hit increases and you draft Carman's replacement.  If he does well you best spent your draft pick improving/replacing a position (safety, corner, dline). 

Also what does that have to do with Carman's feeling? You need to chill.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(04-11-2022, 09:55 PM)northernbengal Wrote: Its not about Carman's feelings, its about optimizing your draft capital and cap space. In years Burrow will have a large increase in Cap hit and we need to be drafting replacements to fill other positions. Waiting a year will allow us a better evaluation of Carman. If we have issues we can trade or sign someone during the season. A rookie guard this year will probably not be any better. If he has issues you sign a stopgap next year before Burrow's cap hit increases and you draft Carman's replacement.  If he does well you best spent your draft pick improving/replacing a position (safety, corner, dline). 

Also what does that have to do with Carman's feeling? You need to chill.

I'm aware of that, it's why i said bring in Tretter on a 1 yr deal and let CARMAN develop and prove he belongs out there. All i see atm is MJ 2.0. Every now and then he looks like he belongs, but most of the time he can't seem to get it together.

Rookie OL outside of Rd 1, really don't need to be on the field much at all. It takes 1-2 yrs for most to get it.

[fredtoast]

(04-11-2022, 11:04 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote:  All i see atm is MJ 2.0. 

I believe that a majority of the people who are down on Carman are actually down on Jordan.

Instead of downgrading Carman because a 4th round pick never worked out look at other 2nd round picks. A lot more of them develop into starters than 4th round picks.

[Sled21]

(04-10-2022, 11:54 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: Spain's PFF grade was around 25 for the Super Bowl and 46 for the entire playoffs.  That is horrible  He got beat like a drum when it mattered most and he had to play against better defenses.  He was a large part of the Super Bowl loss.  If the Bengals make it back to the playoffs, is this a guy you think we can count on?  You want the same talent on the Oline that lost the Super Bowl?

If you bring Spain back at LG and you have Williams at LT and you have Karras at center who posted a PFF very close to Hopkins at center when Karras played center, you would have about the same level of talent at those positions as you did last year.  Thats not going to cut it.  You cant go out there with the same level of play at LT, LG and Center and think the line doesnt need more work.  I think the Bengals need to move Karras to guard where he played much better than at center and bring in better talent at center like Tretter.  That would make the line much better.  Having Karras at center and bringing back Spain is a much worse scenario.

Spain was playing hurt during the playoffs. Playing hurt often leads to reduced performance. 
And if getting beat by Aaron Donald disqualifies a lineman from being someone you want, we won't have any offensive linemen left in the NFL. 

[Mike M (the other one)]

(04-12-2022, 10:27 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I believe that a majority of the people who are down on Carman are actually down on Jordan.

Instead of downgrading Carman because a 4th round pick never worked out look at other 2nd round picks. A lot more of them develop into starters than 4th round picks.

I was never down on MJ, I said he needed more time to develop, but there does come a point where you have to say. Ok, it is what it is and time to move on.


I'm not down on Carman either, but there is too many IF's surrounding him going into the season if the plan is for him to be the starting LG.

The Bengals track record for drafting OL has been atrocious in the last 10 years in ALL rounds (1 Price, 1 Oggy, 2 Fischer)

Jonah in 2019, then 2012 Zietler, 2011 Boling, 2009 Andre Smith, 2006 Whitworth. The other 17 selected during that time have been avg to garbage (doesn't include Carman or Smith).

From 2014 drafts we are listed as the 3rd worst at drafting OL... Houston #1, Raiders #2.

I don't have pff subscription, so i can only view the first three positions. What's our other positions look like? Do we actually draft anything better than avg??

https://www.pff.com/news/draft-2022-nfl-draft-measuring-positional-draft-success-every-nfl-team

[Shake n Blake]

(04-10-2022, 03:22 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Where did you come up with this "less than 50% chance"?  What is that based on?

From what I see a large majority of second round picks improve significantly over their rookie seasons.  More develop into solid players than complete busts. 

BTW I think you are a little too obsessed with the PFF rating.  PFF ratings are not very accurate.  With other positions it is easy to see because we have other stats to show production, but with O-linemen too many people consider it the holy gospel.

I don't think it's so much that people consider it the Gospel so much as we have little else to judge individual linemen performance. Other than the ol eye test, and Lord knows our eyes all see different things.

[*Synric*]

I'm a fan of Quinton Spain but a smart move might be to bring back Trey Hopkins cheap if they can't fit in a G/C in the draft as a backup that could compete for the LG spot.

[*bengalfan74*]

(04-12-2022, 06:14 PM)Synric Wrote: I'm a fan of Quinton Spain but a smart move might be to bring back Trey Hopkins cheap if they can't fit in a G/C in the draft as a backup that could compete for the LG spot.

I'm not in the Spain fan club or nothing. But I'd like to have an established vet to fall back on if Carman spits the bit. Spain checks that box.

I'm not thrilled by any of our other backups to be honest.

[Sled21]

(04-09-2022, 08:43 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: If memory serves Spain graded out (pff) in several games as our best Olineman, 60' 70's. And some peeps want to act like he is just above hot garbage. 

I still can't figure out why they haven't brought him back ? Considering our other ummmm backups.

I think the club is just letting Spain see what he can get on the market. Afterall, the guy played well for us on the cheap for 2 years. I suspect they are letting him look for a bigger deal, and if he doesn't get it he'll be signed here again for depth. He is certainly quality depth and could push to start.