Why the **** is Jessie Bates not signed yet?

[*psychdoctor*]

(04-20-2022, 03:06 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Well...Bell is a free agent after the season too.

Generally, when you win...it makes your players worth more. And you can't keep everyone.

Good Point.  I think Bell will stay on in his role.  I forgot that both are up at end of this year.  Makes it more certain to get at least one safety fairly early and maybe one later in draft.  

[Whatever]

(04-20-2022, 02:24 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: If Bates does not sign the tag, Bengals could tag him again (be just like tagging him for 1st time), FO has control of these situations, not just ours but others. The life span of an NFL player is not long, so if I am the player, I would not give up 8 million or 13 million to prove a point. Bell tried something similar, now he is an old and useless RB instead of making tens of millions, he gave up a lot of it.

Bell won the standoff with Pittsburgh.  He sat the year and they didn't tag him the following year.  He then became the 2nd highest paid RB in the league and got more guaranteed money than what Pittsburgh's entire offer was.  

The Bengals have a Burrow extension looming next season.  Does anyone think they will set aside that much cap room to play a game of chicken they lost the previous year?  The team has the option to tag him again, but it's not really feasible.

[George Cantstandya]

(04-20-2022, 06:05 PM)Whatever Wrote: Bell won the standoff with Pittsburgh.  He sat the year and they didn't tag him the following year.  He then became the 2nd highest paid RB in the league and got more guaranteed money than what Pittsburgh's entire offer was.  

Just copy and pasting an old post of mine here:

(11-22-2021, 01:52 PM)George Cantstandya Wrote: According to Sports Illustrated here is what the Steelers offered Bell:   
 
https://www.si.com/nfl/2019/03/20/leveon-bell-i-was-so-close-signing-steelers-final-contract-offer

5 years, 70 million, 14 million per year, with 10 million guaranteed as a signing bonus, and 33 million of the contract being paid out the first 2 years.   I have seen other articles that say the guarantee was 20 million (10 million signing bonus and 10 million roster bonus) so the exact details are a little murky.

According to SpoTrac:
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/baltimore-ravens/leveon-bell-12329/

The Jets gave him a 4 years, 52.5 million with 27 million guaranteed.  

Then of course he only played for the Jets for a year and few months then signed small contracts with the Chiefs and Ravens. According to Spotrac he was paid 15 million by the Jets for 2019 and 13 million for 2020 they owed him when they cut him in October of 2020.

So he didn't get paid for one year while he sat out then with the Jets made 28 million.  Since being cut by the Jets he has earned about another 1 million with other teams. Now if he had taken the Steelers offer it makes one wonder if he would have made more money.  He had less guaranteed, 10 million, but if the above is true would have made 33 million had he been able to stay on the Steelers roster for 2 seasons.  Plus he would not have had that year with no pay.  Had he stunk it up or been injured and the Steelers cut him after one year it looks like he would have made less than he did with the Jets.

From what I understand he went for the guaranteed money and that was his big issue for not taking the Steelers offer.  Given that he has not been playing well at all maybe taking that larger guarantee worked out for him in the long run.  There are some what-ifs for sure.  Maybe if he had taken the Steelers offer he would have played better there or maybe they would have held on to him for more than one season thus paying out at least that 33 million.   Also how much did he lose in investments for that year he sat out when he could have made 10's of millions had he taken the Steelers offer?    Lastly a quick search shows that Pennsylvania state tax is significantly lower than New Jersey. So he probably lost a fair bit to taxes compared to PA.  

From the above my opinion is that he probably ended up making less than he would have had he taken the Steelers offer.  I don't think they would have cut him after one season unless he was absolutely horrible or hurt.   He probably ended up paying a lot more in state taxes and also lost a year of earnings that could have been invested.  

Disclaimer:  I don't understand all the ins and outs of NFL contracts which often seem complex.  This is just a post made on what I looked up based on the information I could find and my thoughts on it.

From a 2020 article:

https://www.sportingnews.com/ca/nfl/news/leveon-bell-got-lots-of-money-from-jets-for-little-work-but-still-sold-himself-short/cka9dh9vf1yi1g1xvtyg9lw2y

Quote:Bell did not earn $28,031,250 just from 2019 through the initial 31 percent of the 2020 season. Because he sat out 2018 and earned nothing, one must factor that into the equation. Assuming Bell signs to play the remainder of this year, it most likely will be for a paltry amount. For the moment, though, his annual salary over the past three years comes to $9,343,750.

Had he signed the 2017 Steelers deal, it’s possible he would have banked $57 million since, an average of $14.25 million. Had he accepted the 2018 offer after playing a year on the franchise tag, he’d have been at the same cumulative total, with the prospect of two more high-earning years to follow.

So I guess you can say he won the standoff if he was banking on himself to suck for the rest of his career and just get paid. It is of my opinion he actually cost himself a lot of money.  Sorry, let's get back on topic.

[Emeritus]

The man wants top 3 positional money so lets see if he gets it. I'd say the playoff version would but how often do you see that guy.

[Sled21]

Jessie wants to be paid like "Playoff Jessie," but the Bengals want to pay him like "Middle of the Season Jessie." For Bates to get the contract he wants, he's going to have to put in a full season. He certainly is capable, but he hurt himself with his funk he fell into last season.

[Whatever]

(04-20-2022, 07:07 PM)George Cantstandya Wrote: Just copy and pasting an old post of mine here:


From a 2020 article:

https://www.sportingnews.com/ca/nfl/news/leveon-bell-got-lots-of-money-from-jets-for-little-work-but-still-sold-himself-short/cka9dh9vf1yi1g1xvtyg9lw2y


So I guess you can say he won the standoff if he was banking on himself to suck for the rest of his career and just get paid.   It is of my opinion he actually cost himself a lot of money.  Sorry, let's get back on topic.

I stand corrected on his guaranteed money being more than Pittsburgh's total offer.  

I think the thing you're missing is that it's highly unlikely Bell gets a big FA contract if he played another year on the FT.  He only had one year of high volume usage after leaving the Steelers and his YPC was only 3.2 YPC.  The year he played under the FT his YPC dropped from 4.9 the previous 2 seasons to only 4.0.  He was already declining at that point.  A big reason why he said he wouldn't sign the 2nd FT is the Steelers gave him over 400 touches his first year on the tag and were using him up so there would be nothing left when he hit FA.  

[Luvnit2]

(04-20-2022, 07:07 PM)George Cantstandya Wrote: Just copy and pasting an old post of mine here:


From a 2020 article:

https://www.sportingnews.com/ca/nfl/news/leveon-bell-got-lots-of-money-from-jets-for-little-work-but-still-sold-himself-short/cka9dh9vf1yi1g1xvtyg9lw2y


So I guess you can say he won the standoff if he was banking on himself to suck for the rest of his career and just get paid.   It is of my opinion he actually cost himself a lot of money.  Sorry, let's get back on topic.

Yep

[XenoMorph]

(04-21-2022, 08:38 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Jessie wants to be paid like "Playoff Jessie," but the Bengals want to pay him like "Middle of the Season Jessie." For Bates to get the contract he wants, he's going to have to put in a full season. He certainly is capable, but he hurt himself with his funk he fell into last season.

^^my thoughts as well

[Luvnit2]

(04-20-2022, 06:05 PM)Whatever Wrote: Bell won the standoff with Pittsburgh.  He sat the year and they didn't tag him the following year.  He then became the 2nd highest paid RB in the league and got more guaranteed money than what Pittsburgh's entire offer was.  

The Bengals have a Burrow extension looming next season.  Does anyone think they will set aside that much cap room to play a game of chicken they lost the previous year?  The team has the option to tag him again, but it's not really feasible.

It appears Bell's goal was only to make money, not be a great football player and team member. Now he and his career are irrelevant proving giving int this guys is a huge mistake. We want winners at all costs, not a bunch of guys whose only goal is t get rich, Just my 2 cents

[George Cantstandya]

(04-21-2022, 10:52 AM)Whatever Wrote: I stand corrected on his guaranteed money being more than Pittsburgh's total offer.  

I think the thing you're missing is that it's highly unlikely Bell gets a big FA contract if he played another year on the FT.  He only had one year of high volume usage after leaving the Steelers and his YPC was only 3.2 YPC.  The year he played under the FT his YPC dropped from 4.9 the previous 2 seasons to only 4.0.  He was already declining at that point.  A big reason why he said he wouldn't sign the 2nd FT is the Steelers gave him over 400 touches his first year on the tag and were using him up so there would be nothing left when he hit FA.  

Again I don't want to go too far off topic.  My point was if he had signed the Steelers offer he may have made more money.  He would not have had a year with no pay. He would not have been playing another year under the franchise tag since he would have taken the Steelers offer.  Had he signed the offer and managed to stay on the team for at least 2 years, which I think he would have, then he would have made at least 33 million as far as I understand the offer he was given.  

From the article SI article I linked earlier:

Quote:Pittsburgh’s final offer, Bell says, fell short: five years, $70 million—$14 million per, with the only fully guaranteed money being a $10 million signing bonus. (The Steelers have a policy of not offering future guarantees in veteran deals.) But it also included $33 million paid out over the first two seasons, and Pittsburgh has never cut a player one year into a contract that lucrative.

Instead he sat out a year, earned no money and when you are talking about close to 10 million+ dollars it's a big loss in investment opportunities.  Then he went to a team with much higher state income tax.  A quick search shows that NJ state income tax for income over $5 million dollars is 10.75 percent.  Where as it appears Pennsylvania has a flat state tax rate of 3.07 percent.  So that's probably another million or so.

There are certainly a lot of what-ifs.  But factoring in a year of not getting paid millions of dollars there is a lot lost investment value.  Then going to a much worse team probably didn't help him as well.  Yeah he got his $28 million and then fell off a cliff for the rest of his career.  But I think over the long run it cost him as opposed to accepting the Steelers offer with more earning potential had he stayed on the team for at least 2 years.   Maybe he didn't really want to play football for long, perhaps his heart wasn't in it, and just took the guaranteed money as an exit strategy.   In that case he made the right choice I guess. 

My not doing math rough estimate is that he cost himself around 5 million dollars at the very least.  But again a lot of who knows.  

Back on topic, I don't think Bates will go that route.  I think after the draft he'll sign his franchise tag or work out a 2-3 year deal.  

[Housh]

I just have a feeling the deal we have in the table this year won’t be there next year no matter how well Bates plays. Just my hunch. The Chase/Burrow albatross deals are gonna keep us from signing 3/4 other players.


We’ve just gotta pick the 3/4 players we’re letting go intelligently. My vote right now is Tee, Mixon and Bates.

[Shake n Blake]

Is Bates really the best player on our defense? I'd take Hendrickson, Reader and Wilson over him. Tbh, I might rather lose Bates than BJ Hill, Awuzie, or Hubbard. Bell and Hilton are right up there.

I think people got hung up on that one sky high PFF grade he got, and he's been overhyped ever since. Good player, but inconsistent, and I don't think losing him will break this defense.

I'd be hesitant to break the bank over the guy. Plus he's rubbed me the wrong way with how he's behaved over his contract status. Saying it affected him last year. Not signing the tag this year. Ugh.

[THE PISTONS]

(04-26-2022, 02:20 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Is Bates really the best player on our defense? I'd take Hendrickson, Reader and Wilson over him. Tbh, I might rather lose Bates than BJ Hill, Awuzie, or Hubbard. Bell and Hilton are right up there.

I think people got hung up on that one sky high PFF grade he got, and he's been overhyped ever since. Good player, but inconsistent, and I don't think losing him will break this defense.

I'd be hesitant to break the bank over the guy. Plus he's rubbed me the wrong way with how he's behaved over his contract status. Saying it affected him last year. Not signing the tag this year. Ugh.

That's where I'm at.

Bates is above average to good with shades of great at times. But, he's not consistently any of those things.

It seems he's priced at the great level. But, he likely will only play at that level part of the time.

Guys like Hendrickson, Readers, Hubbard, and Awuzie have played at a pretty consistently Good level. They don't have stretches of below average play, etc.

I'm not a Bates hater by any means. If he were priced at his level of above average to good Safety I'd be in.

Our last period of having a good team should have taught us a lesson. We will lose players from the core. We just have to control which ones that is. And I'd keep the ones that produce consistently.

[*jason*]

(04-26-2022, 02:20 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Is Bates really the best player on our defense? I'd take Hendrickson, Reader and Wilson over him. Tbh, I might rather lose Bates than BJ Hill, Awuzie, or Hubbard. Bell and Hilton are right up there.

I think people got hung up on that one sky high PFF grade he got, and he's been overhyped ever since. Good player, but inconsistent, and I don't think losing him will break this defense.

I'd be hesitant to break the bank over the guy. Plus he's rubbed me the wrong way with how he's behaved over his contract status. Saying it affected him last year. Not signing the tag this year. Ugh.

Yep... I'm over Jesse Bates too. He's far from the best player on our defense, and I'd be pissed if they locked him up for what he's asking. Kick rocks Jesse.

[Shake n Blake]

(04-26-2022, 02:27 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: That's where I'm at.

Bates is above average to good with shades of great at times. But, he's not consistently any of those things.

It seems he's priced at the great level. But, he likely will only play at that level part of the time.

Guys like Hendrickson, Readers, Hubbard, and Awuzie have played at a pretty consistently Good level. They don't have stretches of below average play, etc.

I'm not a Bates hater by any means. If he were priced at his level of above average to good Safety I'd be in.

Our last period of having a good team should have taught us a lesson. We will lose players from the core. We just have to control which ones that is. And I'd keep the ones that produce consistently.

His varying levels of play and his attitude about his contract have put him firmly in the "players I'm ok with moving on from" section. There was another poster who mentioned Bates, Tee and Mixon as players we should probably move on from as this roster gets more expensive and I'd agree with that list.

Some of those good players we've mentioned play more important positions (imo) as well. On top of them being more consistent.

[pulses]

(04-25-2022, 12:56 AM)Housh Wrote: I just have a feeling the deal we have in the table this year won’t be there next year no matter how well Bates plays. Just my hunch. The Chase/Burrow albatross deals are gonna keep us from signing 3/4 other players.


We’ve just gotta pick the 3/4 players we’re letting go intelligently. My vote right now is Tee, Mixon and Bates.

And probably Boyd as well. I know some would hate it but I wouldn't be mad if we took Breece Hall.

[pulses]

(04-26-2022, 02:20 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Is Bates really the best player on our defense? I'd take Hendrickson, Reader and Wilson over him. Tbh, I might rather lose Bates than BJ Hill, Awuzie, or Hubbard. Bell and Hilton are right up there.

I think people got hung up on that one sky high PFF grade he got, and he's been overhyped ever since. Good player, but inconsistent, and I don't think losing him will break this defense.

I'd be hesitant to break the bank over the guy. Plus he's rubbed me the wrong way with how he's behaved over his contract status. Saying it affected him last year. Not signing the tag this year. Ugh.

I agree draft his replacement( Dax Hill or Kerby Joseph) and let him walk or trade him to somebody.

[Whacked]

(04-26-2022, 02:20 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Is Bates really the best player on our defense? I'd take Hendrickson, Reader and Wilson over him. Tbh, I might rather lose Bates than BJ Hill, Awuzie, or Hubbard. Bell and Hilton are right up there.

I think people got hung up on that one sky high PFF grade he got, and he's been overhyped ever since. Good player, but inconsistent, and I don't think losing him will break this defense.

I'd be hesitant to break the bank over the guy. Plus he's rubbed me the wrong way with how he's behaved over his contract status. Saying it affected him last year. Not signing the tag this year. Ugh.

x2

[hugh jasse]

(04-20-2022, 06:05 PM)Whatever Wrote: Bell won the standoff with Pittsburgh.  He sat the year and they didn't tag him the following year.  He then became the 2nd highest paid RB in the league and got more guaranteed money than what Pittsburgh's entire offer was.  

The Bengals have a Burrow extension looming next season.  Does anyone think they will set aside that much cap room to play a game of chicken they lost the previous year?  The team has the option to tag him again, but it's not really feasible.

In my opinion, The Steelers lost the standoff.  Bell lost the standoff.  Nobody won this.  Bell, recently admitted that nobody has provided him an opportunity since the Steelers.  Both sides lost this deal.

I don't think anyone will disagree that the Jets lost on this deal the most though.  LOL

[*ochocincos*]

Don't be surprised if a safety is taken early to groom for a year behind Bates, then Bates walks next season.
Bengals will retain Bell, who should be quite a bit cheaper.