Breaking: Carman rape accusation at Clemson

[JaggedJimmyJay]

(04-29-2022, 10:11 AM)fredtoast Wrote: No it has not.

Why do you say this?  I am not aware of a long list of people wrongly convicted who are later exonerated.

Got any examples?

Approximately 1 in 54 rapes reported to police eventually turn into felony convictions, and less turn into incarcerations. There is simply no way in hell that 53 in 54 rapes reported to police are false reports. Figures vary some depending upon the source, but they're always abysmal.

[*pally*]

This is an example, which happens far more than any want to admit, of the ridiculous types of obstacles a woman reporting rape face...in 2022

A woman told her Christian college that she was raped.
The college said it wouldn't investigate b/c it happened off-campus.
It also decided she must be punished for allegedly having premarital sex before the assault, also off-campus.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/visible-music-college-rape-complaint-rcna26418

[Roland]

(04-29-2022, 07:50 PM)pally Wrote: Easier said than done when you are already not in a position of power like a 15 year black girl in South Carolina.  And it is even easier to say when you are not in the victim's situation.  Even now women have to jump through hoops to show they were raped especially if they weren't left bleeding, battered and bruised.  

Things haven't changed so much since 1978.  Not in a football town when you are talking about football players

Bull.  Today, men are routinely expelled from college and have their lives ruined with almost no real evidence in Title IX proceedings that don't meet any reasonable standards of justice.

What you call "jumping through hoops" is what is actually called providing proof that a crime occurred.   So terrible to have such high expectations for putting someone in jail for years.

The terrible thing about this notion that the normal standards of justice shouldn't apply to rape because it's hard to prove is that it would be black men who would suffer the most from it.

[fredtoast]

(04-29-2022, 08:40 PM)Roland Wrote: Bull.  Today, men are routinely expelled from college and have their lives ruined with almost no real evidence in Title IX proceedings that don't meet any reasonable standards of justice.

What you call "jumping through hoops" is what is actually called providing proof that a crime occurred.   So terrible to have such high expectations for putting someone in jail for years.

The terrible thing about this notion that the normal standards of justice shouldn't apply to rape because it's hard to prove is that it would be black men who would suffer the most from it.

Actually Jagged has a point.  He is using somewhat skewed stats, but in general conviction rate on rapes reported to police are about a third of other crimes.

The reason is clear.  When everyone agrees that all the physical evidence shows the couple had sex it can be very difficult to show that there was lack of consent on one side.

But the flip side is that the same facts that make it hard to prove for a conviction also makes it easier to make false claims.  Many men who were not convicted of rape suffered terribly just due to the allegations.  Some of them were guilty and some of them were innocent.  Our criminal justice system is designed to make it difficult to convict an innocent defendant.  But it also makes it harder to convict someone who is guilty.  I think that is the way it has to be.

[tms]

(04-29-2022, 07:52 PM)Rubekahn29 Wrote: If no other big news media pick this up, Carman isn’t going anywhere. Anyone can make an allegation and if there are no charges being filed after this long, there won’t be unless new evidence comes up. Those thinking he’s going to be released might as well forget that unless new information comes up.

But how would you feel if the Bengals were the ones did it, as an excuse to not only release him but to draft someone in his place last night (and save themselves any public criticism for doing so)?

I'm not convinced they didn't play a hand in this story being published when it was. In other words, they weren't looking to keep him. I think they were looking to cut him. Maybe they still are.

[BengalsBong]

(04-29-2022, 06:57 PM)AtomicBlaze Wrote: I hope we are trying to trade him and that is why the coaches won't comment on this.  Even a 7th rounder would be fine.  At least it would mean he won't start for us.

They had a presser about this last year. They talked to all parties involved police and the victim they were assured last year that there was nothing to this. Zac is not going to draft anyone that he thinks might hurt the culture. The owners are mostly lawyers and are certainly not going to waste a 2rd pick on him if there was any chance of it hurting the team. 

It is brought up to make the Bengals as a team look bad and most pushing it in this thread are new accounts most likely the same dirtbag that keeps bringing it up.

[Whatever]

(04-29-2022, 08:31 PM)JaggedJimmyJay Wrote: Approximately 1 in 54 rapes reported to police eventually turn into felony convictions, and less turn into incarcerations. There is simply no way in hell that 53 in 54 rapes reported to police are false reports. Figures vary some depending upon the source, but they're always abysmal.

Police nationwide only have a 2% conviction rate for felony crimes.  Our criminal justice is set up on the ideal that we would rather let guilty persons go free than put innocent ones in jail.  That isn't a rape specific issue.

[Rubekahn29]

(04-30-2022, 12:54 AM)tms Wrote: But how would you feel if the Bengals were the ones did it, as an excuse to not only release him but to draft someone in his place last night (and save themselves any public criticism for doing so)?

I'm not convinced they didn't play a hand in this story being published when it was. In other words, they weren't looking to keep him. I think they were looking to cut him. Maybe they still are.

There is 0% chance that is true (Bengals pushing the narrative). That would bring way too much negative press, and if you don’t know if it’s true, then pushing that narrative is damaging.

[Housh]

Idk if this topic has a healthy middle.

You cant have women automatically getting the benefit of the doubt when they accuse a guy, but you also cant just say screw all women and never believe them



The healthy compromise IMO is the NFL giving full respect to every claim and doing thorough investigations, while at the same time not taking action on players until they are found guilty of something. I really really dont like guys being fired or suspended during open investigations. You can conduct a thorough investigation while a guy plays his games.

[Housh]

(04-29-2022, 08:31 PM)JaggedJimmyJay Wrote: Approximately 1 in 54 rapes reported to police eventually turn into felony convictions, and less turn into incarcerations. There is simply no way in hell that 53 in 54 rapes reported to police are false reports. Figures vary some depending upon the source, but they're always abysmal.

This is sad.

Youd think going to the police soon after the assault would work too but there is just no way to be fair to the man and the women in these cases. Someone is gonna get the shaft. In 2018 a WWE wrestler named Patrick Clark was accused of sexual shit with a minor and to this day he has not been charged with anything and no substantial evidence has been compiled against him. He lost his job and working minimum wage jobs now. Same company, a guy named Enzo Amore was accused of rape. He was not only not charged, i think they proved he couldnt have done it. Dude now wrestles small venues and has no path back to a big company like WWE. 


My mindset with these cases is to not label a guy a rapist until hes convicted of rape and to be prepared to let go of anyone who IS proven to be a predator. I loved R Kellys music, but he was convicted and i havent rocked with him since. I dont wanna give his estate any more money via record sales.

[tms]

(04-30-2022, 02:08 AM)Rubekahn29 Wrote: There is 0% chance that is true (Bengals pushing the narrative). That would bring way too much negative press, and if you don’t know if it’s true, then pushing that narrative is damaging.

I agree it's very unlikely. But the only thing more unlikely is someone else pushing the narrative. Like honestly- who would stand to gain from doing that right now? Carman's not a prospect, he's a drafted player. It's not scaring anyone away from picking him- he's already under contract. Unless the timing is a total coincidence, it was done at the draft for a reason. I mean, the only media outlets that "reported" on it were Bengals outlets. All signs point to the fact that it was an inside job. 

[Tony]

(04-28-2022, 06:03 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: https://twitter.com/defectormedia/status/1519755597775785994?s=21&t=zjpTskJ4pyjXFGUQnVwDtQ

Don’t know what to think here.

Christ, you really wanted to get this out there bad..... Sickening

[leonardfan40]

(04-30-2022, 02:24 AM)tms Wrote: I agree it's very unlikely. But the only thing more unlikely is someone else pushing the narrative. Like honestly- who would stand to gain from doing that right now? Carman's not a prospect, he's a drafted player. It's not scaring anyone away from picking him- he's already under contract. Unless the timing is a total coincidence, it was done at the draft for a reason. I mean, the only media outlets that "reported" on it were Bengals outlets. All signs point to the fact that it was an inside job. 

A low level media outlet wrote the story. Why would they? For clicks. If you want to get into conspiracy theories it could be any other team as well trying to get others to jump us to take o line to drop other positions or to allow themselves to trade back since there appeared to be a lack of trade up interest before the draft.

It makes no sense for the bengals to do this. If they were going to they would do it AFTER they drafted his replacement. Why would they put news out there that indicates they will draft an o line high ahead of time? Then everyone who needed o line would jump us in the draft. The fact that they haven’t drafted o line yet should be the final piece of evidence you need to prove they didn’t put that news out themselves. There is no reason to even suggest they did this

[fredtoast]

(04-30-2022, 02:04 AM)Whatever Wrote: Police nationwide only have a 2% conviction rate for felony crimes.  Our criminal justice is set up on the ideal that we would rather let guilty persons go free than put innocent ones in jail.  That isn't a rape specific issue.

That is what I was talking about with the skewed statistics.  The felony conviction rate is very low for all crimes.

But it is significantly lower with date rape just because there is rarely physical evidence of what was happening in the mind of the accuser.  Both parties admit they had sex.  Physical evidence proves it.  But unless there are physical injuries "lack of consent" is hard to prove.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

I know it's a fictional show, but I really think anyone who isn't up to speed on things, should watch Law and Order: SVU.

Again, fictional and dramatized, but what Fred wrote in his post about how difficult it is to prove consent is what they started to focus on (seemingly) in the seasons around 2016 or so (season 17 or 18, I think?), as there are a lot of cases where consent is blurred and the DA has a very hard time trying to prove intent.

Hell, my wife was completely clueless on the American judicial system and just by watching this for the past 4 weeks, every day (she's home on Maternity Leave), she now grasps the concepts and a bit of the process of rape cases and has a better understanding at what is being portrayed on screen.

I too vaguely remember this last year, btw and indeed it was dealt with swiftly. I can tell you (from a non-American's POV) that whether or not the act did occur, this woman has 0 case and 0 recourse, as per the details given in this mediocre to poor article.

I am an INCREDIBLY-moral human being and I want to see things righted/people put in the spots they should be put in, but I also don't want to see another Shawn Oakman sitch. That guy's career got ruined due to the reputation of the schools he was attending and because of his size/status as a football player. It says a lot when the majority of the Baylor victims were paid off/swept under the rug, yet Oakman maintained his innocence, went to trial and was acquitted.

[fredtoast]

(04-30-2022, 10:39 AM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote:  It says a lot when the majority of the Baylor victims were paid off/swept under the rug, yet Oakman maintained his innocence, went to trial and was acquitted.

A.J. Johnson was a First Team All-SEC LB for the Vols a few years ago.  He was kicked off the team for rape charges that he beat at trial.  Just like with Carman it came down to phone records of the accuser. After being out of football for a couple of years he got a shot with the Broncos.  He didn't make the team, but you have to wonder what could have been if he had been able to play more college ball.

[grampahol]

(04-29-2022, 07:50 PM)pally Wrote: Easier said than done when you are already not in a position of power like a 15 year black girl in South Carolina.  And it is even easier to say when you are not in the victim's situation.  Even now women have to jump through hoops to show they were raped especially if they weren't left bleeding, battered and bruised.  

Things haven't changed so much since 1978.  Not in a football town when you are talking about football players

https://www.espn.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/32496588/before-jerry-sandusky-penn-state-football-had-another-serial-sexual-predator-untold-story-crimes-fight-bring-justice

South Carolina can be especially problematic for a young, black girl accusing someone of rape and especially a football player from Clemson.
I'm not too familiar with the courts here, but if politics is any indication it's a tough time for this young lady.. 

[Soonerpeace]

(04-30-2022, 09:57 AM)Tony Wrote: Christ, you really wanted to get this out there bad..... Sickening

That’s a huge reach

[Stewy]

(04-30-2022, 01:28 AM)BengalsBong Wrote: They had a presser about this last year. They talked to all parties involved police and the victim they were assured last year that there was nothing to this. Zac is not going to draft anyone that he thinks might hurt the culture. The owners are mostly lawyers and are certainly not going to waste a 2rd pick on him if there was any chance of it hurting the team. 

It is brought up to make the Bengals as a team look bad and most pushing it in this thread are new accounts most likely the same dirtbag that keeps bringing it up.

That is a succinct and accurate summary.  Maybe not the dirtbag part, but this was brought up and dismissed last year with the FO doing their due diligence.

Really this thread needs locked. Can't believe this is 5 pages long.

[KillerGoose]

(04-30-2022, 01:00 PM)Stewy Wrote: That is a succinct and accurate summary.  Maybe not the dirtbag part, but this was brought up and dismissed last year with the FO doing their due diligence.

Really this thread needs locked.  Can't believe this is 5 pages long.

I've seen a couple of people in this thread mentioning this was already discussed last year but man, I can't find an iota of proof of it. I've tried finding articles and I have watched several of Zac's pressers (including his 2nd round press conference) and I haven't found it being brought up yet.