Paul Daughtery: Doc: Zac Taylor came in strutting, without actually strutting. He was

[wanga]

The Toast is burning.

[Essex Johnson]

(05-03-2022, 08:15 PM)jj22 Wrote: Good read, but I read "culture" as Burrow....

Without Burrow, would this have materialized. We may never know (or care). Either way, Bengals have arrived, and it's nice to be able to a model Franchise.

Culture and vision was changing day 1 ZT took over, Burrow was perfect to move it more and ZT handling of Burrow has been excellent. 

[fredtoast]

(05-04-2022, 05:06 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: You blamed the FO for not supporting Marvin in FA. You said the Bengals were underdogs every playoff game. Kinda of giving an excuse for all his playoff losses. Yet Taylor gets no credit as he too was the underdog because of he had better talent you point out. . You can’t have it both ways. 

I am not trying to have anything "both ways".  I can't follow your logic here.

Marvin was an underdog in 5 of his 7 playoff games.  Zac was an underdog in 3 of his 4.  Not a lot of difference.  Zac won 3 of 4 and I have always given him more credit than Marvin.  So I have no clue what you are talking about.

All I did was correct someone who made a statement that was 100% false.  I don't understand why you guys get so upset at the truth. Why do you feel that you have to tell lies about Marvin in order to prop up Zac?  Why can't you acknowledge the huge change in the way the front office deals with free agency with Zac?

[Soonerpeace]

(05-04-2022, 05:57 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I am not trying to have anything "both ways".  I can't follow your logic here.

Marvin was an underdog in 5 of his 7 playoff games.  Zac was an underdog in 3 of his 4.  Not a lot of difference.  Zac won 3 of 4 and I have always given him more credit than Marvin.  So I have no clue what you are talking about.

All I did was correct someone who made a statement that was 100% false.  I don't understand why you guys get so upset at the truth. Why do you feel that you have to tell lies about Marvin in order to prop up Zac?  Why can't you acknowledge the huge change in the way the front office deals with free agency with Zac?

You do want it both ways. Marvin gets a pass for being underdog and losing Zac is an underdog and wins but the FO supports Taylor so although an underdog no credit. Too funny.

Where did I lie about Marvin?

[Soonerpeace]

(05-04-2022, 05:57 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I am not trying to have anything "both ways".  I can't follow your logic here.

Marvin was an underdog in 5 of his 7 playoff games.  Zac was an underdog in 3 of his 4.  Not a lot of difference.  Zac won 3 of 4 and I have always given him more credit than Marvin.  So I have no clue what you are talking about.

All I did was correct someone who made a statement that was 100% false.  I don't understand why you guys get so upset at the truth. Why do you feel that you have to tell lies about Marvin in order to prop up Zac?  Why can't you acknowledge the huge change in the way the front office deals with free agency with Zac?

I’ll acknowledge the huge change in the way the Front Office dealt with Free Agency under ZT when you acknowledge that Zac did a great job with the culture

[Mike M (the other one)]

(05-04-2022, 05:22 PM)wanga Wrote: The Toast is burning.

The time has come
To say fair's fair
To pay the rent
To pay our share


*sorry got distracted there

[fredtoast]

(05-04-2022, 07:19 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: You do want it both ways. Marvin gets a pass for being underdog and losing Zac is an underdog and wins but the FO supports Taylor so although an underdog no credit. Too funny.

You must not have been around when Marvin was losing all those playoff games and the fanbase was losing their minds because the fornt office would not give him any help in free agency.

Believe me there was nothing "too funny" about it.

(05-04-2022, 07:19 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Where did I lie about Marvin?

You didn't Shanebo did.  He claimed that when Marvin was coach he usually had a more talented roster when he lost those playoff games.

[fredtoast]

(05-04-2022, 07:27 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: I’ll acknowledge the huge change in the way the Front Office dealt with Free Agency under ZT when you acknowledge that Zac did a great job with the culture

I'll acknowledge Zac's job with the "culture" when you can post some stats or proof to support your claim.

Because 100% of the facts show that Zac didn't win shit with his "culture" until he got more talented players.  You keep saying that "culture" is only "part" of the equation and a team also needs talent.  But in order to make that claim you have to show that there was at least SOME benefit to the "culture" the first two seasons.  So how do you explain only 6 wins?  Fewest in the entire league?  So where is the impact of the "culture" on the win/loss record?

"Culture" is like "accountability".  They are made up terms people like to use but can never define or even provide examples of when i ask for them.  Everyone claims they "see it" but they can never show me a video clip of it.  So I simply say "show me".  If you see it them give me a specific example.

[*bengalfan74*]

(05-05-2022, 08:27 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I'll acknowledge Zac's job with the "culture" when you can post some stats or proof to support your claim.

Marvin Lewis 0-7 Zac Taylor 3-1

[fredtoast]

(05-05-2022, 08:36 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Marvin Lewis 0-7 Zac Taylor 3-1

You do not even understand the debate.

It is like the argument about student test results being more influenced by "nature" or "nurture".  You can't answer that question just by repeating the test results.  That proves nothing.

[Soonerpeace]

(05-05-2022, 08:56 AM)fredtoast Wrote: You do not even understand the debate.

It is like the argument about student test results being more influenced by "nature" or "nurture".  You can't answer that question just by repeating the test results.  That proves nothing.

Fred’s like that one juror on a trial that thinks the defendant is not guilty.

[*SHRacerX*]

(05-03-2022, 05:53 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Great article touches on so many things this season Fredtoast has been praising Taylor for his culture.


Doc: Zac Taylor came in strutting, without actually strutting. He was right all along

Three years ago, Zac Taylor came in strutting. He wasn’t cocky about it. There’s a very slight line between arrogance and confidence. It’s a hard line to walk for even the most experienced and successful coaches. Taylor managed it as a rookie and he has never wavered.

That’s the most remarkable aspect of the Bengals' seemingly overnight success. A rookie coach, a guy who’d never been a head coach anywhere, who was all of 35 years old, came in walking his own walk and did it so gracefully he never came off as a blowhard know-it-all. Then in Year 3, he validated every belief he so publicly espoused on Day 1.

If there is a Bengal Way now, it’s Taylor’s

Culture wins games. Players who believe in the culture play winning football. The Bengals teach the culture, draft to it, spend money on it, live it to the extent that it matters as much as talent. "The process is important to them and they love the grind of it," Taylor said of his roster. "At times they care more about their teammates and coaches than about their own success.

"Lots of coaches, most of them college coaches, speak in effortless platitudes about "character." Most will happily blow off character when the talent is irresistible.

The Bengals?

I asked Taylor Tuesday to solve a riddle. You’re considering two players at the same position, either in the draft or via free agency. One is more skillful, the other you deem a better fit for Bengaldom. Whom do you choose?

"Sometimes when you watch a really good talent it’s easy in your mind to say, maybe some of the character stuff, we can get it out of him," Taylor said.

You mean you succumb to the lure of talent? 

"The character is what has carried us to this point, also. You can have a lot of talented individuals in your locker room that don’t love football. We want guys that love football. We have a lot of those types of guys.

"In Taylor’s first two years, when the Bengals went 6-25-1 and his were teams of characters more than character, it was very easy to be cynical. I might have referred to “Zac’s Culture Club’’ more than once, in a less-than-gracious way. It seemed an excuse when Taylor, after every loss, cited the C-word. You know: We’re changing the culture in the locker room, it’ll take time, we’ll get there et cetera.

It also came off as a backhanded swipe at Marvin Lewis, whose culture wasn’t perfect but was surely good enough to reverse the Bengals' perma-losing. By Bengals standards, Marvin moved mountains. Who was this kid to imply that Lewis ran a culture-free locker room?

Taylor tuned out the noise. His confidence might have been perceived as arrogant (or delusional) before last season. Now, it’s becoming a full-blown Way.

Joe Burrow sells it to free agents, Mike Hilton spreads it to all who will listen. Come to Cincinnati. We have a culture that works. We’ve only just begun. When someone asked Hilton if the '22 Bengals can reprise the camaraderie of '21, Hilton said, "It didn’t go nowhere.

"Said Taylor, "When our rookies show up here in two weeks, you begin that process of, here’s the values that are important to us, here’s what we believe. The more the guys are around what we want to be about, it becomes ingrained in them.

."Self-fulfilling, self-sustaining. The Taylor Way.

(Did you ever in your vast lifetimes dream of the Bengals being a model franchise, at least for their culture? I’d have bet you six Odell Thurmans and a couple of Tez Burficts against that possibility.)

"I don’t ever want to take it for granted," said Taylor "Who are the guys we think would be good Bengals? You want to hit the reset button with what’s important as far as our Bengals culture.

"It’s possible the big pile of praise the Taylor Way now enjoys could unravel. Last year was a dream. Very few injuries, a last-place schedule, a Three Musketeers locker room, a stride hit at a perfect, late-season time. All that bad Bengals karma, gathered over decades, reversed in one, touched season.

You could even suggest the bedraggled baseball team down the street could take a lesson from the Taylor Way: Find something you believe in. Don’t deviate from it.

Even if the 2021 magic doesn’t linger, the culture might. It could be built to last. Maybe that’s what Zac Taylor saw through 6-25-1 that the rest of us did not. "We could see it coming," he said Tuesday.

He was strutting, without strutting. And he was right all along.

Good stuff, thanks for sharing...

When friends outside the area ask about the Bengals, they all rave about Burrow...and rightfully so.  What the guy did coming off a severe knee injury was nothing short of amazing.  However, I am always careful to credit the coaches for getting rid of malcontents, sticking to their guns, and building the kind of team that Burrow CAN lead.  

It almost sounds hokey and Ted Lasso-ish, but everything from the playoff game balls to the time when ZT said how they would eventually look back at these times and laugh about their early struggles.  They never wavered.  

I'd also like to tip the proverbial hat to one Elizabeth Blackburn, who revolutionized the Bengals social media platform (and is now one of the best follows in the league), got the ROH built, and made some massive improvements to the stadium experience.  She was the genesis of a lot of those things, and she has helped make the Bengals one of the most fun, young organizations in the league.  

It all came together last year, and I believe Zac can keep it going for many years to come because he had the right formula and didn't waver from his plan.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(05-03-2022, 07:22 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: That was a good read. One thing I know about culture in the workplace is when you have a good one, there's nothing you can't do. While a bad one is a company killer. Leadership can carry a lot of the blame, but it starts on doing you due diligence on investigating who you hire in the first place.

Dead on, Harley.  I wish I had done just that a year ago...

[*SHRacerX*]

(05-03-2022, 08:28 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: Umm. Nobody has any idea as to if there is truth to it or not. They still ignored it. The Depp trial hasn't shown any solid proof one way or the other as far as I know. Just a bunch of he said she said. So maybe your the one Bill Burr was talking about. Not surprising you wouldn't pick up on that.

You must not be following because what she said was a massive, accusatory lie, and she was caught on tape.  

[HarleyDog]

(05-05-2022, 09:26 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Dead on, Harley.  I wish I had done just that a year ago...

Unfortunately, I learned from experience as well. I firmly believe this is why Zac puts so much value on character and leaders. You can't deviate from that philosophy either because it only take 1 bad seed to come in and spread the cancer. That culture of his is one of the main reasons they were in the SB, and also why they will return.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(05-04-2022, 07:44 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: The time has come
To say fair's fair
To pay the rent
To pay our share


*sorry got distracted there

Midnight Oil! Haven't thought about that song/band in YEARS! 

OK, back to our regularly scheduled rants....

[*bfine32*]

(05-05-2022, 08:27 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I'll acknowledge Zac's job with the "culture" when you can post some stats or proof to support your claim.

(05-05-2022, 08:36 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Marvin Lewis 0-7 Zac Taylor 3-1

(05-05-2022, 08:56 AM)fredtoast Wrote: You do not even understand the debate.

It is like the argument about student test results being more influenced by "nature" or "nurture".  You can't answer that question just by repeating the test results.  That proves nothing.

Perhaps you're unsure what stats or proof are. The answer is the proof.  

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(05-05-2022, 08:15 AM)fredtoast Wrote: You must not have been around when Marvin was losing all those playoff games and the fanbase was losing their minds because the fornt office would not give him any help in free agency.

Believe me there was nothing "too funny" about it.



You didn't Shanebo did.  He claimed that when Marvin was coach he usually had a more talented roster when he lost those playoff games.

Who's to say that Marvin wanted any help? That 2015 team really only had one weak link, and that was Russell Bodine. Remember....when the media questioned the staff about upgrading the center, good ol Ketchup Paulie called it a "witch hunt".  However, I was REALLY wanting the team to upgrade him.

Really, the Bengals were re-signing a lot of very talented FAs during the Dalton/Green tenure. I think they could've added more when Palmer was here, for sure. That's when I was most upset with whoever was deciding what to do in FA. They let the line go to crap for a while, and the WR corps wasn't much after TJ left. 

Marvin had his guys that played to his philosophy. Those guys didn't translate very well, as a whole, to Zac's philosophy, and they were getting long in the tooth to boot. If the Bengals wanted to win any time soon, they really had no choice but to be aggressive in FA. That roster SORELY needed flipped, and the draft was not going to do it soon enough. As I've maintained, year 1 was a roster evaluation. Year 2 was the start of roster turnover. Year 3 yielded a flipped roster and a Super Bowl run.... something Marvin couldn't do in SIXTEEN years. 

I sure do appreciate Marvin delivering us from the abyss, but that ship sailed in January of 2016.... it's just too bad management ignored that until 2019.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(05-05-2022, 08:27 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I'll acknowledge Zac's job with the "culture" when you can post some stats or proof to support your claim.

Because 100% of the facts show that Zac didn't win shit with his "culture" until he got more talented players.  You keep saying that "culture" is only "part" of the equation and a team also needs talent.  But in order to make that claim you have to show that there was at least SOME benefit to the "culture" the first two seasons.  So how do you explain only 6 wins?  Fewest in the entire league?  So where is the impact of the "culture" on the win/loss record?

"Culture" is like "accountability".  They are made up terms people like to use but can never define or even provide examples of when i ask for them.  Everyone claims they "see it" but they can never show me a video clip of it.  So I simply say "show me".  If you see it them give me a specific example.

So Ken Anderson.....an ex NFL player in case you'd forgotten....just made up the term, and knows less about the culture on a team than you? Interesting.....

[Frank Booth]

(05-05-2022, 09:59 AM)WychesWarrior Wrote: So Ken Anderson.....an ex NFL player in case you'd forgotten....just made up the term, and knows less about the culture on a team than you? Interesting.....

Ken Anderson isn’t going to come out and say publicly that he disapproves of the new bengals head coach during his first season

C‘mon now