Paul Daughtery: Doc: Zac Taylor came in strutting, without actually strutting. He was

[fredtoast]

(05-05-2022, 02:57 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: This is fairly mild. but yea, he's like that alot. 

(05-05-2022, 02:57 PM)Earendil Wrote: Not all the time, but most of the time, yes. Fred's schtick is to be a contrarian. I honestly wish people wouldn't let him bait them into arguments when he's like this. But alas, here we are yet again.

Two more dodging my questions.

They want to claim the difference between winning in '21 and losing in '20 was "attitude" and "character", yet they refuse to say that any players/coaches had a poor attitude or weak character in '20.

They know how silly that logic sounds so they turn to attacking me.

[*bfine32*]

(05-05-2022, 02:54 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yep.  Instead of answering my tough questions you all just duck and dodge.  Or try to run and hide behind a personal attack.


Just like clockwork.

Your question was the opposite of tough; it was as predictable as a toddler wanting candy. Hell I knew you were going to ask it before you did. A culture takes time to develop. JB acknowledged the different culture and attitude in the presser I referenced.  The answer is glaring to all except the most simple of simpletons or a blatant troll. Cultures are created and developed. It took Zac 3 years to develop one that aided a team predicted to be last in their division; if not the entire AFC to come within 1 play of winning a Super Bowl.
 
It was obvious your brilliant retort was going to be: "Why didn't he do it a year earlier?"

[*bfine32*]

(05-05-2022, 03:01 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Two more dodging my questions.

They want to claim the difference between winning in '21 and losing in '20 was "attitude" and "character", yet they refuse to say that any players/coaches had a poor attitude or weak character in '20.

They know how silly that logic sounds so they turn to attacking me.

No one is "dodging your question". You've foiled no one with your brilliant intellect and sound reasoning. Each are being rationally answered, but as I said:

[fredtoast]

(05-05-2022, 03:20 PM)bfine32 Wrote:  The answer is glaring to all except the most simple of simpletons or a blatant troll. Cultures are created and developed. It took Zac 3 years to develop one that aided a team predicted to be last in their division;

Actually the term "glaring" usually means something clear and obvious.  Yet not a single one of you can explain exactly what Taylor did between '20 and '21 that changed the culture so much.  Or why exactly it take 3 years.  All I get is

"Well, obviously to build character you do good character things and not bad character things.  And, of course you have to do them for exactly 3 years.  2 years does not help at all.  Everyone knows this except trolls and simpletons."

[ATOTR]

(05-05-2022, 03:42 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Actually the term "glaring" usually means something clear and obvious.  Yet not a single one of you can explain exactly what Taylor did between '20 and '21 that changed the culture so much.  Or why exactly it take 3 years.  All I get is

"Well, obviously to build character you do good character things and not bad character things.  And, of course you have to do them for exactly 3 years.  2 years does not help at all.  Everyone knows this except trolls and simpletons."

2020: https://www.si.com/nfl/bengals/news/zac-taylor-bengals-culture-problem

2022: https://www.foxsports.com/stories/nfl/super-bowl-2022-how-bengals-built-winning-culture

Sure, some if fluff.  Some is based on the SB run, some is based on Burrow being so good so fast. 

[Soonerpeace]

(05-05-2022, 09:25 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Good stuff, thanks for sharing...

When friends outside the area ask about the Bengals, they all rave about Burrow...and rightfully so.  What the guy did coming off a severe knee injury was nothing short of amazing.  However, I am always careful to credit the coaches for getting rid of malcontents, sticking to their guns, and building the kind of team that Burrow CAN lead.  

It almost sounds hokey and Ted Lasso-ish, but everything from the playoff game balls to the time when ZT said how they would eventually look back at these times and laugh about their early struggles.  They never wavered.  

I'd also like to tip the proverbial hat to one Elizabeth Blackburn, who revolutionized the Bengals social media platform (and is now one of the best follows in the league), got the ROH built, and made some massive improvements to the stadium experience.  She was the genesis of a lot of those things, and she has helped make the Bengals one of the most fun, young organizations in the league.  

It all came together last year, and I believe Zac can keep it going for many years to come because he had the right formula and didn't waver from his plan.  

Zac Taylor lacked experience as a head coach and little OC experience. He was basically offered by Denver ( with staff conditions ) and Arizona. He liked the situation and ownership at Cincy. What did the other ownership/mgt teams see in him knowing he lacked experience? He had a plan and a vision that impressed them all. He wasn’t the lead candidate for any of them.

He took the Cincy job right after the Super Bowl and a lot of coaches he’d have liked to hire weren’t available. I’m sure he was encouraged to bring in an experienced DC like Jack Del Rio. Eventually he got Lou Aranumo who he’d coached with at Miami. His first year he had push back from the veterans. The roster was awful. He instructs the scouting department to put more emphasis on leaders, players of high character, and players that loved ball. It really didn’t materialize until the roster of 2020.

Handicapped by Covid restrictions and a rookie QB they start by losing to the Chargers by 3,Cleveland by 5, Tie Philly in 2OT,Beat the Jags, get drilled by the Ravens, lose by 4 to the Colts, and 3 to the Browns. Then they beat the Titans and get drilled by Pitt. They then get beat by Wash and lose Joe. Their record didn’t show it but before Joe’s injury they were near playing .500 ball.

Helped by a strong FA for ‘21 and drafting well they finally caught fire and gelled and made it to the SB. They won 3 playoff games and beat KC twice. Tell me the last team to beat KC and Mahomes two straight.

Taylor is not Bill Belicheck but Bill Belicheck wasn’t Bill Walsh in year 3 either and nor did anybody think he’d pass Walsh as a great coach. Not suggesting Zac is going to be a HOF coach.

But if fans can’t see the great strides and differences in the Bengals since he got here I can’t help them. He’s taken heavy criticism for his OC duties. This year with a better OL he does need to take it to another level. I think the defense will be improved and for sure the offense. I’m predicting with a much much tougher schedule 12-5. There’s going to be several AFC teams around that number. Injuries a key. I look for an offense much better in the Redzone and short yardage. I look for a defense that’s tough on third down.

[Big_Ern]

(05-05-2022, 01:54 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No I have not.  I have just been told that the culture has changed.

Adam Jones and Vontaze Burfict have been gone since 2017 and the team got much worse after they left and Zac took over.  So that is not really a strong argument to prove that we are winning now because of superior "character".

 Least penalties in league I believe. There's a start 

[George Cantstandya]

(05-05-2022, 05:44 PM)Big_Ern Wrote:  Least penalties in league I believe. There's a start 

Not the least but over 21 games last season (a NFL record for games played) the Rams had 90 and the Bengals 93.   Aside from the Rams and the Bengals only 6 other teams were in then lower part of penalties and they only played 17 games with the exception of Green Bay which played 18.

https://www.nflpenalties.com/

Additionally in 2020 the Bengals were also among the least penalized with 83:

https://www.nflpenalties.com/index.php?view=total&year=2020

And again in 2019 one of the least penalized teams with 93:

https://www.nflpenalties.com/index.php?view=total&year=2019

In 2018 they were in the top 12 most penalized with 114:

https://www.nflpenalties.com/index.php?view=total&year=2018

2017 top 16 most penalized with 110:

https://www.nflpenalties.com/index.php?view=total&year=2017

2016 they were the best with only 88:

https://www.nflpenalties.com/index.php?view=total&year=2016

2015 top 12 most penalized with 119:

https://www.nflpenalties.com/index.php?view=total&year=2015

I don't know that is a projection of success because many teams in the top half of penalties have had good seasons and many teams in the bottom half of penalties have had bad seasons.  But I do agree reducing penalties obviously doesn't hurt.  Anyway, that's sort of an interesting stat to look at. 

[*bfine32*]

(05-05-2022, 05:44 PM)Big_Ern Wrote:  Least penalties in league I believe. There's a start 

Well, why the hell didn't he do it in 2020?

DO NOT DODGE THIS QUESTION. IT'S BRILLIANT

[NUGDUKWE]

I like the guys we have on the squad and the attitude we bring. I really think our struggles before were due to letting Whitworth go and whiffing on the guys meant to replace him along with some other bad drafts. We lost coordinators that we finally failed to replace successfully. Not too mention we didn't spend in free agency like we do now. Some of our best character guys were on the squad before Zac got here. I do think last year's free agency we did really well with players on and off the field.

[Frank Booth]

Penalties for the bengals are gonna go up with Collins at RT

[KillerGoose]

(05-05-2022, 06:06 PM)George Cantstandya Wrote: I don't know that is a projection of success because many teams in the top half of penalties have had good seasons and many teams in the bottom half of penalties have had bad seasons.  But I do agree reducing penalties obviously doesn't hurt.   Anyway, that's sort of an interesting stat to look at. 

Just commenting on this portion because I have looked into it and found it interesting. Penalties have essentially zero correlation with team success. I looked at this in intervals of ten years, five years and three years but I was unable to find anything that suggested that penalties matter much at all. I expected to find a minor correlation to success I.E. less penalties means slightly more wins. I guess good teams are good enough to overcome the penalties they incur and bad teams are just bad, regardless.

I do like seeing less penalties, though, so I will take whatever edge I can get.

[NUGDUKWE]

(05-05-2022, 07:05 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Just commenting on this portion because I have looked into it and found it interesting. Penalties have essentially zero correlation with team success. I looked at this in intervals of ten years, five years and three years but I was unable to find anything that suggested that penalties matter much at all. I expected to find a minor correlation to success I.E. less penalties means slightly more wins. I guess good teams are good enough to overcome the penalties they incur and bad teams are just bad, regardless.

I do like seeing less penalties, though, so I will take whatever edge I can get.

I do remember thinking when we played the Vikings week 1 about holding penalties. Really about the fact that the Vikings had like 10+ holding penalties but it didn't really seem to have to big of an impact as that game still went to overtime. I wondered if we should be telling our guys to just blatantly hold if there getting beat.

[George Cantstandya]

(05-05-2022, 07:05 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Just commenting on this portion because I have looked into it and found it interesting. Penalties have essentially zero correlation with team success. I looked at this in intervals of ten years, five years and three years but I was unable to find anything that suggested that penalties matter much at all. I expected to find a minor correlation to success I.E. less penalties means slightly more wins. I guess good teams are good enough to overcome the penalties they incur and bad teams are just bad, regardless.

I do like seeing less penalties, though, so I will take whatever edge I can get.

Thanks for the info I always appreciate the data you collect and share.  I agree there doesn't seem to be a significant correlation between total penalties and winning.  However one thing I wonder about is timing of those penalties.  For example what's worse, getting a false start penalty on 2nd and 5 or a false start penalty on 3rd and one?  Also where is the team on the field when the penalty happened and what were the conditions in the game?  As we have unfortunately seen as Bengals fans (and really most fans of NFL teams) penalties at the worst times are costly.  I'm not sure there are team stats for untimely penalties which would be an interesting thing to measure as opposed to total penalties. But if there are such stats I bet you have them.    :)

[*bfine32*]

(05-05-2022, 06:27 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Well, why the hell didn't he do it in 2020?

DO NOT DODGE THIS QUESTION. IT'S BRILLIANT

Well damn it!! He did do it in 2020, but he failed to do it in 2019. WHY!?!?!?!

[*bengalfan74*]

(05-05-2022, 08:02 PM)George Cantstandya Wrote: Thanks for the info I always appreciate the data you collect and share.  I agree there doesn't seem to be a significant correlation between total penalties and winning.  However one thing I wonder about is timing of those penalties.  For example what's worse, getting a false start penalty on 2nd and 5 or a false start penalty on 3rd and one?  Also where is the team on the field when the penalty happened and what were the conditions in the game?  As we have unfortunately seen as Bengals fans (and really most fans of NFL teams)  penalties at the worst times are costly. I'm not sure there are team stats for untimely penalties which would be an interesting thing to measure as opposed to total penalties.  But if there are such stats I bet you have them.    :)

That's what I'd like to see stats on. If you have a couple false starts late in the game up by 17 it doesn't hurt as much as down by 9 with 5 minutes to go in the game.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-03-2022, 05:53 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Great article touches on so many things this season Fredtoast has been praising Taylor for his culture.


Doc: Zac Taylor came in strutting, without actually strutting. He was right all along

Three years ago, Zac Taylor came in strutting. He wasn’t cocky about it. There’s a very slight line between arrogance and confidence. It’s a hard line to walk for even the most experienced and successful coaches. Taylor managed it as a rookie and he has never wavered.

That’s the most remarkable aspect of the Bengals' seemingly overnight success. A rookie coach, a guy who’d never been a head coach anywhere, who was all of 35 years old, came in walking his own walk and did it so gracefully he never came off as a blowhard know-it-all. Then in Year 3, he validated every belief he so publicly espoused on Day 1.

If there is a Bengal Way now, it’s Taylor’s

Culture wins games. Players who believe in the culture play winning football. The Bengals teach the culture, draft to it, spend money on it, live it to the extent that it matters as much as talent. "The process is important to them and they love the grind of it," Taylor said of his roster. "At times they care more about their teammates and coaches than about their own success.

"Lots of coaches, most of them college coaches, speak in effortless platitudes about "character." Most will happily blow off character when the talent is irresistible.

The Bengals?

I asked Taylor Tuesday to solve a riddle. You’re considering two players at the same position, either in the draft or via free agency. One is more skillful, the other you deem a better fit for Bengaldom. Whom do you choose?

"Sometimes when you watch a really good talent it’s easy in your mind to say, maybe some of the character stuff, we can get it out of him," Taylor said.

You mean you succumb to the lure of talent? 

"The character is what has carried us to this point, also. You can have a lot of talented individuals in your locker room that don’t love football. We want guys that love football. We have a lot of those types of guys.

"In Taylor’s first two years, when the Bengals went 6-25-1 and his were teams of characters more than character, it was very easy to be cynical. I might have referred to “Zac’s Culture Club’’ more than once, in a less-than-gracious way. It seemed an excuse when Taylor, after every loss, cited the C-word. You know: We’re changing the culture in the locker room, it’ll take time, we’ll get there et cetera.

It also came off as a backhanded swipe at Marvin Lewis, whose culture wasn’t perfect but was surely good enough to reverse the Bengals' perma-losing. By Bengals standards, Marvin moved mountains. Who was this kid to imply that Lewis ran a culture-free locker room?

Taylor tuned out the noise. His confidence might have been perceived as arrogant (or delusional) before last season. Now, it’s becoming a full-blown Way.

Joe Burrow sells it to free agents, Mike Hilton spreads it to all who will listen. Come to Cincinnati. We have a culture that works. We’ve only just begun. When someone asked Hilton if the '22 Bengals can reprise the camaraderie of '21, Hilton said, "It didn’t go nowhere.

"Said Taylor, "When our rookies show up here in two weeks, you begin that process of, here’s the values that are important to us, here’s what we believe. The more the guys are around what we want to be about, it becomes ingrained in them.

."Self-fulfilling, self-sustaining. The Taylor Way.

(Did you ever in your vast lifetimes dream of the Bengals being a model franchise, at least for their culture? I’d have bet you six Odell Thurmans and a couple of Tez Burficts against that possibility.)

"I don’t ever want to take it for granted," said Taylor "Who are the guys we think would be good Bengals? You want to hit the reset button with what’s important as far as our Bengals culture.

"It’s possible the big pile of praise the Taylor Way now enjoys could unravel. Last year was a dream. Very few injuries, a last-place schedule, a Three Musketeers locker room, a stride hit at a perfect, late-season time. All that bad Bengals karma, gathered over decades, reversed in one, touched season.

You could even suggest the bedraggled baseball team down the street could take a lesson from the Taylor Way: Find something you believe in. Don’t deviate from it.

Even if the 2021 magic doesn’t linger, the culture might. It could be built to last. Maybe that’s what Zac Taylor saw through 6-25-1 that the rest of us did not. "We could see it coming," he said Tuesday.

He was strutting, without strutting. And he was right all along.

This is a great thread Soonerpeace, sorry I was so late to it. Loving the Taylor Way and truly believe it will just continue and we 
will be the next team that other teams truly worry about similar to the Patriots with Billy B and Tom. We will have the Taylor Way
and Joey B. Gonna be fun times people. Was hoping that this last year was the year where it turned and he did more than that as
we all saw. So close, if we stay somewhat healthy in the trenches I expect it all this season. We will see but no one can deny that 
the future is bright in Cincy with the Zac, Burrow and the Bengals.

[Soonerpeace]

(05-05-2022, 08:58 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: This is a great thread Soonerpeace, sorry I was so late to it. Loving the Taylor Way and truly believe it will just continue and we 
will be the next team that other teams truly worry about similar to the Patriots with Billy B and Tom. We will have the Taylor Way
and Joey B. Gonna be fun times people. Was hoping that this last year was the year where it turned and he did more than that as
we all saw. So close, if we stay somewhat healthy in the trenches I expect it all this season. We will see but no one can deny that 
the future is bright in Cincy with the Zac, Burrow and the Bengals.

You mailbox is full I sent you a message or tried lol

[KillerGoose]

(05-05-2022, 08:02 PM)George Cantstandya Wrote: Thanks for the info I always appreciate the data you collect and share.  I agree there doesn't seem to be a significant correlation between total penalties and winning.  However one thing I wonder about is timing of those penalties.  For example what's worse, getting a false start penalty on 2nd and 5 or a false start penalty on 3rd and one?  Also where is the team on the field when the penalty happened and what were the conditions in the game?  As we have unfortunately seen as Bengals fans (and really most fans of NFL teams)  penalties at the worst times are costly.  I'm not sure there are team stats for untimely penalties which would be an interesting thing to measure as opposed to total penalties.  But if there are such stats I bet you have them.    :)

I do have access to data like this. We would have to define what an untimely penalty is, first. I took an initial crack at it and defined an untimely penalty as any penalty that occurs in the 4th quarter in a game within one score. After grabbing the penalty data (I grabbed it per season, per team), I added their losses for that season and then ran a regression. 

I am still getting similar results. Using this kind of penalty data, we can explain 0.0006% of the variation in loss totals by way of untimely penalties, or this variation of it. Essentially, no relationship.

[*SHRacerX*]

(05-05-2022, 05:20 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Zac Taylor lacked experience as a head coach and little OC experience. He was basically offered by Denver ( with staff conditions ) and Arizona. He liked the situation and ownership at Cincy. What did the other ownership/mgt teams see in him knowing he lacked experience? He had a plan and a vision that impressed them all. He wasn’t the lead candidate for any of them.

He took the Cincy job right after the Super Bowl and a lot of coaches he’d have liked to hire weren’t available. I’m sure he was encouraged to bring in an experienced DC like Jack Del Rio. Eventually he got Lou Aranumo who he’d coached with at Miami. His first year he had push back from the veterans. The roster was awful. He instructs the scouting department to put more emphasis on leaders, players of high character, and players that loved ball. It really didn’t materialize until the roster of 2020.

Handicapped by Covid restrictions and a rookie QB they start by losing to the Chargers by 3,Cleveland by 5, Tie Philly in 2OT,Beat the Jags, get drilled by the Ravens, lose by 4 to the Colts, and 3 to the Browns. Then they beat the Titans and get drilled by Pitt. They then get beat by Wash and lose Joe. Their record didn’t show it but before Joe’s injury they were near playing .500 ball.

Helped by a strong FA for ‘21 and drafting well they finally caught fire and gelled and made it to the SB. They won 3 playoff games and beat KC twice. Tell me the last team to beat KC and Mahomes two straight.

Taylor is not Bill Belicheck but Bill Belicheck wasn’t Bill Walsh in year 3 either and nor did anybody think he’d pass Walsh as a great coach. Not suggesting Zac is going to be a HOF coach.

But if fans can’t see the great strides and differences in the Bengals since he got here I can’t help them. He’s taken heavy criticism for his OC duties. This year with a better OL he does need to take it to another level. I think the defense will be improved and for sure the offense. I’m predicting with a much much tougher schedule 12-5. There’s going to be several AFC teams around that number. Injuries a key. I look for an offense much better in the Redzone and short yardage. I look for a defense that’s tough on third down.

Very well said.  That year where Burrow got injured, they were really starting to move the ball on offense (200 yards at the half against a very tough WFT defense) but all anyone around here wanted to say was 6-25-1.  "You are what your record says you are", as we head plenty.  I myself called 2021 the "No Excuses" season, as I could see the roster and the FA acquisitions filling a lot of holes.  You just hoped it all came together.


Zac had the foresight not to totally turn Joe loose early on.  You could see by the play calling and perhaps knowledge of a hole still in the offensive line (or three).  Then, Joe seemingly flipped a switch on a QB scramble against the steelers and it the shackles were removed.

Perhaps the greatest thing about the entire coaching staff has been their ability to make adjustments.  In game adjustments, even.  We were mocked by Marvin for suggesting that he was deficient in that area.  Well, the proof is in the pudding and now we have seen it from this staff.  

Folks might read this as me building a statue for all three coordinators and the one head coach, but it is really just showing my support and faith that we have the right people for the job.  

Exciting times, my friends.  Who Dey!