Posts: 40,628
Threads: 1,062
Joined: May 2015
(05-07-2022, 12:32 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: I guess your author Jesse Elise had a change of heart after she dug further LOL:
No change of heart at all. Basically just repeating what I have said all along. When they started winning they started getting along better and feeling more positive about the team.
Teammates on a losing team criticize each other = bad chemistry that can lead to fights.
Teammates on a winning team criticize each other = "holding each other accountable"
Posts: 5,939
Threads: 144
Reputation:
27903
Joined: Dec 2021
(05-07-2022, 10:39 AM)fredtoast Wrote: No change of heart at all. Basically just repeating what I have said all along. When they started winning they started getting along better and feeling more positive about the team.
Teammates on a losing team criticize each other = bad chemistry that can lead to fights.
Teammates on a winning team criticize each other = "holding each other accountable"
They dumped the guys not contributing to building a winning culture. Thank goodness.
Posts: 40,628
Threads: 1,062
Joined: May 2015
(05-07-2022, 10:44 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: They dumped the guys not contributing to building a winning culture. Thank goodness.
So getting rid of Giovanni Bernard and signing Eli Apple was what saved our "culture"?
That's a good one, Sooner.
Posts: 5,939
Threads: 144
Reputation:
27903
Joined: Dec 2021
(05-07-2022, 10:57 AM)fredtoast Wrote: So getting rid of Giovanni Bernard and signing Eli Apple was what saved our "culture"?
That's a good one, Sooner.
No Giovanni was about money.
Posts: 2,180
Threads: 86
Reputation:
8621
Joined: Dec 2016
(05-03-2022, 06:54 PM)bengals1969 Wrote: Mike Brown had a history of bringing players with character issues if they had outsized talent and lower cost.
Marvin Lewis had a similar outlook.
Maybe Katie Brown is the real reason the culture has changed?
Zac Taylor is here with his vision of because it’s what she wanted to change?
In any case all of this happened with stars on rookie deals and stars with recent free agent deals. Let’s see how the locker room behaves as more and more contracts come up like Jessie Bates’s.
id have to agree with that on what Katie asked him ....I bet one of the reasons Taylor got the gig was how he answered interview questions on "how to turn this thing around." ...and bringing in the character and football guys were emphasized.
Posts: 17,168
Threads: 237
Reputation:
134691
Joined: Oct 2015
"Good culture" often seems like a code phrase for having good players and winning.
If they had 51/53 players from 2021, but instead of Joe Burrow and Ja'Marr Chase they had two guys who despite being extremely good teammates and people, had the skill level of Ryan Finley and Ryan Whalen, would the "new culture" still be a good culture? I highly doubt it would be.
The "culture" of the Bengals turned around because their front office started spending money in FA to bring in quality players and they lost their way into two home run top-5 picks including a franchise QB.
____________________________________________________________
The 2021 season Super Bowl was over 1,000 days ago.
Posts: 5,939
Threads: 144
Reputation:
27903
Joined: Dec 2021
(05-07-2022, 11:37 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: "Good culture" often seems like a code phrase for having good players and winning.
If they had 51/53 players from 2021, but instead of Joe Burrow and Ja'Marr Chase they had two guys who despite being extremely good teammates and people, had the skill level of Ryan Finley and Ryan Whalen, would the "new culture" still be a good culture? I highly doubt it would be.
The "culture" of the Bengals turned around because their front office started spending money in FA to bring in quality players and they lost their way into two home run top-5 picks including a franchise QB.
A better culture will always help any team. But a winning culture obviously helps. But there’s been many of talented teams full of individuals that never got there. But this team had confidence despite little experience in the playoffs or crucial games late in the season. The transformation was the result of first bringing in team leaders. ballers, and high character guys. Then following it up with the coaching staff and team leaders building the teams confidence.
Posts: 40,628
Threads: 1,062
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 40,628
Threads: 1,062
Joined: May 2015
(05-07-2022, 11:58 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: The transformation was the result of first bringing in team leaders. ballers, and high character guys. Then following it up with the coaching staff and team leaders building the teams confidence.
First big moves to build culture were giving Bobby Hart a 3 year extension and then bringing in Jim Turner as O-line coach.
It is amazing that moves like this did not have a more immediate impact. 
Posts: 5,939
Threads: 144
Reputation:
27903
Joined: Dec 2021
(05-07-2022, 12:05 PM)fredtoast Wrote: First big moves to build culture were giving Bobby Hart a 3 year extension and then bringing in Jim Turner as O-line coach.
It is amazing that moves like this did not have a more immediate impact.
Turner was a huge mistake but Hart wasn’t Zac.
Posts: 17,168
Threads: 237
Reputation:
134691
Joined: Oct 2015
(05-07-2022, 11:58 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: A better culture will always help any team. But a winning culture obviously helps. But there’s been many of talented teams full of individuals that never got there. But this team had confidence despite little experience in the playoffs or crucial games late in the season. The transformation was the result of first bringing in team leaders. ballers, and high character guys. Then following it up with the coaching staff and team leaders building the teams confidence.
Modern rules teams that had QBs playing at near-MVP level?
Because if you put Joe Burrow on the 2021 Colts, and Carson Wentz on the 2021 Bengals, I don't think the Bengals have a "good culture" or a "winning culture" anymore but the Colts suddenly would.
Alternatively, if you put Joe Burrow on the 2021 Jets and Zach Wilson on the 2021 Bengals, they both end up stinking because Burrow wouldn't be surrounded by talent, and Wilson wouldn't be very good.
I don't think I have ever seen a "good culture" team that had low talent and low win levels.
____________________________________________________________
The 2021 season Super Bowl was over 1,000 days ago.
Posts: 40,628
Threads: 1,062
Joined: May 2015
(05-07-2022, 12:07 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Turner was a huge mistake but Hart wasn’t Zac.
Zac was head coach when Hart got his extension. Bobby was a "Taylor guy".
**waits for Sooner to explain how Taylor has nothing to do with signing bad players but gets all the credit for signing good players**
Posts: 5,274
Threads: 60
Reputation:
39666
Joined: Mar 2018
Location: Oklahoma
I look at it this way - a "good" culture is something that keeps you focused on the job. You're motivated and happy to do your work. A bad culture demotivates you and distracts you from the task at hand. A good culture is built primarily by two things, which I believe are success and leadership. Zac is a likable guy, he's a players coach. The team also brought in talented free agents, but the biggest deal was that Burrow took a huge step forward.
So, the Bengals have a likable coach and talented players. They had a successful season. They now have a good culture. However, the biggest part of this whole equation, in my opinion, is the talented players part. The Bengals are a talented squad and that led them to success, which built confidence and camaraderie which bred a good culture. If everything else was the same but the Bengals went 7-10 last season, we wouldn't be arguing about the culture. We'd be arguing about how much Zac sucks and needs to go, culture be damned.
In short, I do think that a good culture matters a little bit, but it is primarily built by success. Success is primarily built by talented players.
Posts: 5,939
Threads: 144
Reputation:
27903
Joined: Dec 2021
(05-07-2022, 12:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Zac was head coach when Hart got his extension. Bobby was a "Taylor guy".
**waits for Sooner to explain how Taylor has nothing to do with signing bad players but gets all the credit for signing good players**
No he wasn’t a Taylor guy.
Posts: 2,722
Threads: 34
Reputation:
21556
Joined: May 2015
Location: Into the Void.....
I can't believe this argument is still going on.
The state of the locker room is not black and white, as some pretend the discussion to be.
The way I see it, it is a combination of player buy in, moving on from players not buying in (from the old regime), and winning. While they say winning cures everything, that is to singular. It is a combination of like minds (high motor guys who love football (per Duke Tobin)), success (DUH!) and buy in to the system (listen to Hilton interview).
Posts: 5,939
Threads: 144
Reputation:
27903
Joined: Dec 2021
(05-07-2022, 12:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Zac was head coach when Hart got his extension. Bobby was a "Taylor guy".
**waits for Sooner to explain how Taylor has nothing to do with signing bad players but gets all the credit for signing good players**
Ryan Finley, Drew Sample were definitely misses by Taylor himself.. Sample was a reach. Taylor is not making the calls on some positions. He’s involved but it’s a group decision. I think the scouting department, Duke, and Zac are really gelling right now but I think they’ve got a void on OL evaluation.
Posts: 378
Threads: 6
Joined: Apr 2022
It’s very simple. Joe Burrow changed the franchise.
He has made everyone around him better.
With Confidence. And that’s contagious.
And they’ve had success.
Taylor is sort of the main recipient of this. If the team is 2-6 next year, the culture won’t look as fun and cohesive.
It’s really simple. Dumping the 8 year loser QB and getting lucky w burrow is 90% of the perceived change
Posts: 5,939
Threads: 144
Reputation:
27903
Joined: Dec 2021
(05-07-2022, 01:11 PM)Stewy Wrote: I can't believe this argument is still going on.
The state of the locker room is not black and white, as some pretend the discussion to be.
The way I see it, it is a combination of player buy in, moving on from players not buying in (from the old regime), and winning. While they say winning cures everything, that is to singular. It is a combination of like minds (high motor guys who love football (per Duke Tobin)), success (DUH!) and buy in to the system (listen to Hilton interview).
I’ll sum it up succinctly. Taylor had a plan and focus to bring in players that loved to ball and high character guys from winning teams. They had to be good players foremost. They meshed with top talents like Burrow, Chase, and Higgins. The formula resulted in a team w/o playoff experience making it to the Super Bowl. Those thinking that talent alone spurred this are wrong. Those thinking culture alone spurred this are wrong as well.
Posts: 40,628
Threads: 1,062
Joined: May 2015
(05-07-2022, 12:51 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: No he wasn’t a Taylor guy.
He was a free agent who signed a 3 year contract while Zac was head coach.
How is he not a Taylor Guy?
Posts: 40,628
Threads: 1,062
Joined: May 2015
(05-07-2022, 01:29 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Those thinking that talent alone spurred this are wrong. Those thinking culture alone spurred this are wrong as well.
You can repeat your opinion as many times as you want, but that does not make it true.
I can show actual facts about the increase in talent and massive decrease in injures between '20 and '21 to explain the winning. But you can't show any real big "character/culture" moves from '20 to '21. In fact we got rid of one of the highest character guys on the team in Gio Bernard and brought in reputed locker room cancer Eli Apple.
Even players like Uzomah admit that the "culture" was not as good in 2020 when they had the same head coach but were losing instead of winning.
|
![[Image: 4CV0TeR.png]](https://i.imgur.com/4CV0TeR.png)
