Paul Daughtery: Doc: Zac Taylor came in strutting, without actually strutting. He was

[ATOTR]

(05-08-2022, 09:12 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Fred loved the old players and Marvin. A true Bengal fan would be ecstatic about the changes and direction.All Fred wants to do is minimize it all.

I think he just likes to be perceived as being knowledgable and correct; even when he is not. (Which appears to be very often). 

I am going to take the various players direct quotes and words that describe the change in culture throughout the organization. 

Not going to really worry what an elderly man on the message boards has to offer.  Last I checked, he is not on the team or a part of the Bengals org.   

[fredtoast]

(05-09-2022, 11:35 AM)ATOTR Wrote: I am going to take the various players direct quotes and words that describe the change in culture throughout the organization. 
   

So you also take the word of the players who claimed Jim Turner and Marvin Lewis were great coaches.

Or how about the words of players who were in the locker room but claim there were problems with the culture?

Sounds to me like what you really mean is that you will take the word of the players who agree with your opinion.

Let me also add that I don't think these players are lying about how they all got along so well last year.  BUt it was because they were winning.  Like I said before.

Players criticizing other layers on a losing team = bad chemistry that could lead to confrontations.

Players criticizing other players on a winning team = good chemistry.

The chemistry was better because of the winning, not some mystical plan that failed for two years and then magically started working at the exact same time that we started winning.

[fredtoast]

(05-08-2022, 08:54 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Oh, exactly! The players, coaches, and FO have repeatedly brought character and locker room makeup up since ZT got there. 

Yet there was an article in 2020 after Zac had been here two years that claimed there were problems with the team chemistry and culture.

If Zac was all about "culture" why were two of his first moves hiring Jim Turner and giving Bobby Hart a 3 year conytract?

[fredtoast]

(05-08-2022, 09:12 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: All Fred wants to do is minimize it all.

You are the one diminishing what the players have done by giving credit to the coaches instead of the players.

New talent comes in an changes the team from a loser to a winner.  But you want to give the credit to the coaches working magic with the "culture".

All I do is look at the facts.  In 2020 after Taylor had been here 2 years there were problems with the "culture" and "chemistry".  There was NO GOOD CHEMISTRY OR CULTURE BEFORE WE STRTED WINNING.

[fredtoast]

(05-09-2022, 12:24 PM)ATOTR Wrote: Like I said.  I’m going to take the various players words for it.  Unless you can find some quotes of them saying the team is operating dysfunctionally

This thread is full of comments from the locker room about the problems in 2020.  Even Burrow admitted it

And it is silly to claim that the only possible options are "Zac is amazing at building culture" and "the team is dysfunctional".  It is 100% possible that the "culture" has no effect on our winning or our losing.  It appears to me that when teams start winning the culture and chemistry get better, nit the other way around.

[Soonerpeace]

(05-09-2022, 12:24 PM)ATOTR Wrote: Like I said. I’m going to take the various players words for it. Unless you can find some quotes of them saying the team is operating dysfunctionally

I’m not eager to listen to a senior citizen on a message board spin his own senile drivel. Sorry to bring up your advanced age again, but as you said ‘some people still care about truth.’

The debate isn’t that Marvin or his last few teams had a bad culture or good culture. They’d developed a losing culture. Taylor recognized they needed to work towards erecting it. That’s not to say Marvin hadn’t at one time had a better culture. That’s not to say some of his old players weren’t great locker room guys at one time. They replaced Marvin because he just wasn’t winning.

Taylor told them in his interview how’d he fix it. They liked it so much they took a chance on a very inexperienced candidate. My sources say Arizona and Denver were also very impressed with his plan.

Nobody can be so naive that his plan was the horse before the cart not the cart before the horse. Oct 1 is when Uzomah was so vocal about the change and camaraderie. It would have fallen flat on its face had they not won. But it was indeed a two way street. The problem with Fred is he won’t admit it took both a culture of confidence by a roster of guys who loved ball and were captains, team leaders, and players used to winning. The free agents brought in like Mike Hilton, Trey Hendrickson, and others helped. They knew what teams need in the locker room to be successful.

Fred thinks Zac had nothing to do with it all. That’s just so simple minded. It took changing the teams confidence as well as winning. It’s called building a team. The whole organization deserves credit.

[fredtoast]

(05-09-2022, 12:44 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Taylor told them in his interview how’d he fix it. 

Hire Jim Turner and give Bobby Hart a three year contract.  That just scream "build culture"

(05-09-2022, 12:44 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote:  The problem with Fred is he won’t admit it took both a culture of confidence by a roster of guys who loved ball and were captains, team leaders, and players used to winning.

The problem is that there is absolutely no evidence to support your position.

If Zac was capable of "building culture" and culture helped us win then we would have seen some results in his second season.  But there was none.  Despite having two draft classes and two full years of free agency to bring in his improved culture we had zero.

Just hard for me to believe in things when there is no evidence to support it.  What the fact show me is that we had two years of losing until the players got healthy and we brought in more talent.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(05-08-2022, 07:21 PM)ATOTR Wrote: This is hilarious.  

There are direct quotes from multiple players, those who actually play and get paid by the franchise, discussing the change in culture and how everyone’s working and driving towards the same thing.  

And then there is a geezer named Fred on a message board trying to refute this.

Lol. What a bozo.

Not to mention, Ken Anderson, who....as far as I know... isn't paid by the Bengals stating he saw it during the abysmal 2019 campaign.

[Soonerpeace]

(05-09-2022, 12:55 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Hire Jim Turner and give Bobby Hart a three year contract.  That just scream "build culture"




The problem is that there is absolutely no evidence to support your position.

If Zac was capable of "building culture" and culture helped us win then we would have seen some results in his second season.  But there was none.  Despite having two draft classes and two full years of free agency to bring in his improved culture we had zero.

Just hard for me to believe in things when there is no evidence to support it.  What the fact show me is that we had two years of losing until the players got healthy and we brought in more talent.

Jim Turner was a huge mistake. Zac knows that now. Not the first coach to hire the wrong guy (all but an inexperienced head coach for one). I’m sure he’d do it different all over again. Your simple mindedness is old. If you think Zac had the influence on calling contracts etc in his first year & solidified Hart then your not smart enough for this conversation

[fredtoast]

(05-09-2022, 01:08 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote:  If you think Zac had the influence on calling contracts etc in his first year & solidified Hart then your not smart enough for this conversation

I apologize for my ignorance.  Please provide the link that told you exactly when Zac was given head coach authority.

Cause I could have sworn someone just told me that the reason the Bengals hire him was because they loved his plan.  So why did they love his plan yet refuse to let him get started on it?

[fredtoast]

(05-09-2022, 01:08 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Jim Turner was a huge mistake. Zac knows that now.

What changed?

All of Turner's character issues were already known about when Zac hired him.

[*Go Cards*]

(05-09-2022, 12:28 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You are the one diminishing what the players have done by giving credit to the coaches instead of the players.

New talent comes in an changes the team from a loser to a winner.  But you want to give the credit to the coaches working magic with the "culture".

All I do is look at the facts.  In 2020 after Taylor had been here 2 years there were problems with the "culture" and "chemistry".  There was NO GOOD CHEMISTRY OR CULTURE BEFORE WE STRTED WINNING.

Only if these remarks from players and coaches came in the weeks after bye week ? Most on here had given up on the 5-4 Bengals coming off a loss to the lowly Jets and a shellacking by the Browns going into Bye week on a two game skid. 


Maybe if Zac had a magic wand then he could have turned Marvin's losing culture around immediately, but thinking Harry Potter had stolen his wand.
 So he had to do it the old fashion way with hard work and good culture roster turnover. 

[fredtoast]

(05-09-2022, 01:01 PM)Wyche Wrote: Not to mention, Ken Anderson, who....as far as I know... isn't paid by the Bengals stating he saw it during the abysmal 2019 campaign.

What exactly did Anderson claim to see that was evidence of this "culture and/or chemistry"?  I'd really like to hear that.


Cordy Glenn refusing to play after the doctors cleared him?

John Ross asking for a trade?

AJ Green giving his all to return from injury?

The teams reaction to the benching of Andy Dalton?

Lou Anarumo being "unapproachable"?

Jim Turner using abusive language in the players?

What exactly did Anderson see and how much access did he have to the Bengals locker room to see this stuff?

[fredtoast]

(05-09-2022, 01:59 PM)Go Cards Wrote: Maybe if Zac had a magic wand then he could have turned Marvin's losing culture around immediately, but thinking Harry Potter had stolen his wand.
 So he had to do it the old fashion way with hard work and good culture roster turnover. 

Taylor had two full years of "roster turnover" and showed ZERO results with improving the culture.  

Don't you find it to be a bit interesting that nothing he supposedly did to improve the culture started to work until the Bengals started to win?

If Taylor had been improving the culture for his first two seasons then the story from 2021 should have been "We have a great culture here, but we just don't have the talent to win mostly because of all the injuries".  But that is not what happened.  Instead after two years of Zac on the job the locker room culture was called "worse than a college team".

[BengalBob]

(05-09-2022, 02:16 PM)fredtoast Wrote: What exactly did Anderson claim to see that was evidence of this "culture and/or chemistry"?  I'd really like to hear that.


Cordy Glenn refusing to play after the doctors cleared him?

John Ross asking for a trade?

AJ Green giving his all to return from injury?

The teams reaction to the benching of Andy Dalton?

Lou Anarumo being "unapproachable"?

Jim Turner using abusive language in the players?

What exactly did Anderson see and how much access did he have to the Bengals locker room to see this stuff?

“If I can share a story with you, this goes back to 2019—Bengals win two games that year,” Anderson recounted. “About three quarters of the way through the season, they go to London, and I happen to be at that game. So, they practice on Thursday in Cincinnati, get on a plane, fly all night, go to London, go to the hotel, drop my (and their) bags off. ‘Okay—let’s go practice’. It’s rainy, it’s drizzly, it’s cold in London...”


“I mean, I’ve been on good teams where you go through something like that and just go through the motions of a practice just to get it over with,” he continued. “It was one of the most spirited, well-executed practices I’ve ever seen. I said: ‘These guys buy into what Zac Taylor is saying.’ He’s got the pulse of this team, he’s created a culture and I think the players contribute to that culture. I said they hold each other accountable...so that locker room is a good locker room, and they have great leadership.”

[Soonerpeace]

(05-09-2022, 01:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I apologize for my ignorance.  Please provide the link that told you exactly when Zac was given head coach authority.

Cause I could have sworn someone just told me that the reason the Bengals hire him was because they loved his plan.  So why did they love his plan yet refuse to let him get started on it?

Yes sir your wish is my command. Zac is a part of all front office discussions along with Mike Brown and Duke Tobin. His plan to improve the team did not give him full authority over front office matters. You are welcome

[Soonerpeace]

(05-09-2022, 01:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I apologize for my ignorance.  Please provide the link that told you exactly when Zac was given head coach authority.

Cause I could have sworn someone just told me that the reason the Bengals hire him was because they loved his plan.  So why did they love his plan yet refuse to let him get started on it?

Nothing changed he ( Jim Turner) should have never been hired.

[Soonerpeace]

(05-09-2022, 03:07 PM)BengalBob Wrote: “If I can share a story with you, this goes back to 2019—Bengals win two games that year,” Anderson recounted. “About three quarters of the way through the season, they go to London, and I happen to be at that game. So, they practice on Thursday in Cincinnati, get on a plane, fly all night, go to London, go to the hotel, drop my (and their) bags off. ‘Okay—let’s go practice’. It’s rainy, it’s drizzly, it’s cold in London...”


“I mean, I’ve been on good teams where you go through something like that and just go through the motions of a practice just to get it over with,” he continued. “It was one of the most spirited, well-executed practices I’ve ever seen. I said: ‘These guys buy into what Zac Taylor is saying.’ He’s got the pulse of this team, he’s created a culture and I think the players contribute to that culture. I said they hold each other accountable...so that locker room is a good locker room, and they have great leadership.”

Fred’s gonna be on that island forever

[sandwedge]

(05-09-2022, 12:55 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Hire Jim Turner and give Bobby Hart a three year contract.  That just scream "build culture"




The problem is that there is absolutely no evidence to support your position.

If Zac was capable of "building culture" and culture helped us win then we would have seen some results in his second season.  But there was none.  Despite having two draft classes and two full years of free agency to bring in his improved culture we had zero.

Just hard for me to believe in things when there is no evidence to support it.  What the fact show me is that we had two years of losing until the players got healthy and we brought in more talent.

Were we not down to starting 3rd stringers starting the last half of that season? Kind of hard to win when you're pulling guys off the street to play. 
Yet they played hard! 

[*jason*]

(05-09-2022, 10:19 PM)sandwedge Wrote: Were we not down to starting 3rd stringers starting the last half of that season? Kind of hard to win when you're pulling guys off the street to play. 
Yet they played hard! 

I don't think so... Pretty sure we just sucked that year. I could be wrong though. That might've been the Auden Tate season.

Pretty sure Cordy Glen happened in 2018 though. Can't really pin that on Zac. I still think this is a really dumb argument that has broken out though... Makes me long for the days of Sewell vs Chase. If I hear culture one more damn time I'ma puke.