Sacks and Tackles-For-Loss

[fredtoast]

In college "Tackles-For-Loss" = "Sacks" + "Stuffs" (tackles for loss on running plays or passes behind the line of scrimmage)

The NFL has two different stats called "Sacks" and "Tackles-For-Loss" and I can't make any sense out of them.

Forgive me for brining Carlos Dunlap into this discussion but it just so happens that his stats really confused me.

In week 14 against the Rams he was credited with 4 tackles, 3 sacks, and 3 tackles-for-loss.  Clearly "sacks" can't be different from "tackles-for-loss" because he would have to have at least 6 tackles to account for 3 of each.

But the next week he was credited with 2 sacks but only 1 TFL.  So that means there is a difference between "sacks" and "tackles-for-loss".  So some "sacks" are "tackles-for-loss" and some aren't?  Anyone understand this?

Also I am believe that I used to be able to find a stat called "stuffs" for NFL defenders, but now I can only find it for RBs.  Does anyone else remember this?

[BuildTheWall]

A sack, by definition, is only when the quarterback (or whoever was attempting the pass) is brought down at or behind the line of scrimmage.
TFL would be when a rusher or receiver is tackled for negative yardage. Technically, a sack that is behind the line of scrimmage is a tackle for loss, but I do not believe they are officially scored as such in the NFL (can somebody confirm?). I'd want to say that some sites score them differently (i.e. some will include negative yard sacks in TFL, others don't) Now, if the quarterback is tackled for no gain, then it is still a sack, but not for a loss. When a scorer does include sacks for loss as part of TFL, these are not included since they are not for a loss.
By the way, even though tackles are commonly tracked and appear on sites like NFL.com, ESPN, PFR, PFF, etc., they are not actually considered official according to the league, unless something changed recently. I know they aren't official in college. Hope this helped!

[fredtoast]

I messed up the OP. I have corrected it now. And I understand how the stats work now.

A "sack" is not a TFL if it is for zero yards.

[fredtoast]

Here is why it is confusing. Again I will use Dunlap's stats to prove my point.

Over the final 4 games of last year he had 7 sacks and 7 TFL. But those 7 and 7 account for 8 total plays.

There is nothing "incorrect" about the math. It just seems a little confusing.

[CarolinaBengalFanGuy]

(05-12-2022, 02:12 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Here is why it is confusing.  Again I will use Dunlap's stats to prove my point.

Over the final 4 games of last year he had 7 sacks and 7 TFL.  But those 7 and 7 account for 8 total plays.

There is nothing "incorrect" about the math.  It just seems a little confusing.

Can we at least talk about Hendrickson's stats some so it relates to the Bengals in some fashion.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(05-12-2022, 02:05 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I messed up the OP.  I have corrected it now.  And I understand how the stats work now.

A "sack" is not a TFL if it is for zero yards.

According to PFR, Trey Hendrickson had 1.0 sacks against the Raiders in Week 11 but 0 TFL. The sack he got was near the end of the 4th quarter for -5 yards.

Maybe a sack can only be a TFL if the QB has turned into a runner? So if they're just standing there in the pocket, not trying to escape with their legs it's just a sack and not a TFL? Because Hendrickson had 2.0 sacks against the Packers and 2 TFL, and I didn't see any non-sack tackles that went for a loss by Hendrickson.

[Nickslycat]

(05-12-2022, 01:20 AM)fredtoast Wrote: In college "Tackles-For-Loss" = "Sacks" + "Stuffs" (tackles for loss on running plays or passes behind the line of scrimmage)

The NFL has two different stats called "Sacks" and "Tackles-For-Loss" and I can't make any sense out of them.

Forgive me for brining Carlos Dunlap into this discussion but it just so happens that his stats really confused me.

In week 14 against the Rams he was credited with 4 tackles, 3 sacks, and 3 tackles-for-loss.  Clearly "sacks" can't be different from "tackles-for-loss" because he would have to have at least 6 tackles to account for 3 of each.

But the next week he was credited with 2 sacks but only 1 TFL.  So that means there is a difference between "sacks" and "tackles-for-loss".  So some "sacks" are "tackles-for-loss" and some aren't?  Anyone understand this?

Also I am believe that I used to be able to find a stat called "stuffs" for NFL defenders, but now I can only find it for RBs.  Does anyone else remember this?

Wow really?  Somebody who acts like he knows what he doesn’t know, can’t understand something so simple.  Google it Fred.

A sack is a tackle of the passer behind the line of scrimmage, if it results in a loss of yards.  If the qb scrambles out of the pocket, and makes it to the los, or beyond it is a tackle.

If the qb runs a draw play, or any designed run play and is tackled behind the line of scrimmage it is tackle for loss.

A tfl is any player with the ball who is tackled behind the los.  

A player who has 2 tfl, is also credited with 2 tackles.

Two different things, sacks and tfl.

A player who has two sacks only, will be credited with zero tackles.

Maybe you should study the culture of being a football fan.  Maybe listen to a podcast.  Locked on Bengals is very helpful for ignorant fans.

[fredtoast]

(05-12-2022, 10:41 AM)Nickslycat Wrote: Wow really?  Somebody who acts like he knows what he doesn’t know, can’t understand something so simple.  Google it Fred.



A player who has two sacks only, will be credited with zero tackles.

Maybe you should study the culture of being a football fan.  Maybe listen to a podcast.  Locked on Bengals is very helpful for ignorant fans.

You claim a sack does not count as a tackle and try to call me "ignorant"?


What an epic post.

[*ochocincos*]

(05-12-2022, 01:20 AM)fredtoast Wrote: In college "Tackles-For-Loss" = "Sacks" + "Stuffs" (tackles for loss on running plays or passes behind the line of scrimmage)

The NFL has two different stats called "Sacks" and "Tackles-For-Loss" and I can't make any sense out of them.

Forgive me for brining Carlos Dunlap into this discussion but it just so happens that his stats really confused me.

In week 14 against the Rams he was credited with 4 tackles, 3 sacks, and 3 tackles-for-loss.  Clearly "sacks" can't be different from "tackles-for-loss" because he would have to have at least 6 tackles to account for 3 of each.

But the next week he was credited with 2 sacks but only 1 TFL.  So that means there is a difference between "sacks" and "tackles-for-loss".  So some "sacks" are "tackles-for-loss" and some aren't?  Anyone understand this?

Also I am believe that I used to be able to find a stat called "stuffs" for NFL defenders, but now I can only find it for RBs.  Does anyone else remember this?

I always thought the NFL considered sacks separate from TFLs.
I thought TFLs only represented tackling ball carrier other than QB.

[fredtoast]

I just read that ESPN stats are different from ProfootballReference. One counts all sacks as TFL and one does not.

[Nickslycat]

(05-12-2022, 10:41 AM)Nickslycat Wrote: Wow really?  Somebody who acts like he knows what he doesn’t know, can’t understand something so simple.  Google it Fred.

A sack is a tackle of the passer behind the line of scrimmage, if it results in a loss of yards.  If the qb scrambles out of the pocket, and makes it to the los, or beyond it is a tackle.

If the qb runs a draw play, or any designed run play and is tackled behind the line of scrimmage it is tackle for loss.

A tfl is any player with the ball who is tackled behind the los.  

A player who has 2 tfl, is also credited with 2 tackles.

Two different things, sacks and tfl.

A player who has two sacks only, will be credited with zero tackles.

Maybe you should study the culture of being a football fan.  Maybe listen to a podcast.  Locked on Bengals is very helpful for ignorant fans.

Look at your first post, you state Dunlap had 3 sacks, 3 tfl, but only 4 tackles.

Take a look at Hendrickson stats for the year.  He had 14 sacks, but on the year he had only 21 solo tackles.

So he had only 7 tackles besides his sacks all year?

The NFL does not count sacks as tackles on the stat sheet.

I stand by my original post, you are ignorant.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(05-12-2022, 11:23 AM)fredtoast Wrote: You claim a sack does not count as a tackle and try to call me "ignorant"?


What an epic post.

(05-12-2022, 11:45 AM)ochocincos Wrote: I always thought the NFL considered sacks separate from TFLs.
I thought TFLs only represented tackling ball carrier other than QB.

(05-12-2022, 02:33 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I just read that ESPN stats are different from ProfootballReference. One counts all sacks as TFL and one does not.

Sacks and tackles are separate stats and have been since forever.

TFL and tackles fall under the same category and indeed, a TFL is on a running/pass play once the QB has given the ball to another player, while a sack is tackling the QB behind the LOS, on a designed pass play.

Playing videogames helps, as the stats are recorded like in the NFL.

[*bengalfan74*]

(05-13-2022, 10:46 AM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Sacks and tackles are separate stats and have been since forever.

TFL and tackles fall under the same category and indeed, a TFL is on a running/pass play once the QB has given the ball to another player, while a sack is tackling the QB behind the LOS, on a designed pass play.

Playing videogames helps, as the stats are recorded like in the NFL.

My only question involves the tackle to tackle box. Once a QB takes off running and gets outside and he's obviously running and goes down behind the LOS does that go as tackle for loss ?

[KillerGoose]

(05-13-2022, 11:51 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: My only question involves the tackle to tackle box. Once a QB takes off running and gets outside and he's obviously running and goes down behind the LOS does that go as tackle for loss ?

If he is obviously running and not looking to pass, then yes. Once the QB has established himself as a runner, it is a TFL. If he is scrambling to buy time for a pass, it is a sack.

[Dr.Z]

(05-13-2022, 11:55 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: If he is obviously running and not looking to pass, then yes. Once the QB has established himself as a runner, it is a TFL. If he is scrambling to buy time for a pass, it is a sack.

I believe a lot of this is by the discretion of the home statisticians which leads to a natural degree of ambiguity at times, much like how some home teams are much more liberal with handing out solo tackle statistics and some seem adverse to giving out assisted tackles.  

[KillerGoose]

(05-13-2022, 12:54 PM)Dr.Z Wrote: I believe a lot of this is by the discretion of the home statisticians which leads to a natural degree of ambiguity at times, much like how some home teams are much more liberal with handing out solo tackle statistics and some seem adverse to giving out assisted tackles.  

Yes, I would agree. It's hard to objectively define "established as a runner".

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

Yeah, doesn't confuse me much except when a QB is trying to avoid a sack and is running for his life and it goes
as a Tackle For Loss instead of a Sack. On a designed run I understand. Sacks and TFL's are completely separate
as Truck says. One is for pass the other is for run. Not complicated at all at least in my mind.

[fredtoast]

(05-13-2022, 10:46 AM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Sacks and tackles are separate stats and have been since forever.

Just to be clear,

Are you claiming that an NFL player does not get credit for a tackle on a sack?  That it is possible to have a stat line of 1 sack and zero tackles?

[fredtoast]

(05-13-2022, 01:23 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Sacks and TFL's are completely separate as Truck says. One is for pass the other is for run. Not complicated at all at least in my mind.

Sometimes it is just a matter of terminology.

For example in college they keep track of what you call "tackles-for-loss" (RB or receiver tackled behind line of scrimmage) except they call them "stuffs".  Then they add "sacks" to "stuffs" to get "tackles-for-loss".

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-13-2022, 03:41 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Sometimes it is just a matter of terminology.

For example in college they keep track of what you call "tackles-for-loss" (RB or receiver tackled behind line of scrimmage) except they call them "stuffs".  Then they add "sacks" to "stuffs" to get "tackles-for-loss".

Well I consider a "stuff" being a run stopped right at the line of scrimmage. Different than a Tackle For Loss where you get the RB 
tackled in the backfield for a loss. I think you are confusing yourself here Fred and me right along with you lol