QB rankings

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(07-07-2022, 06:59 PM)Go Cards Wrote: This ^^^^^^

Joe is the perfect fit for the Bengals

No doubt. There is no QB I would rather have. Joe Cool Burrow has IT.

[grampahol]

All in all over the years we've been lucky to have had some pretty decent QBs with the Bengals. For the most part it's been a remarkably stable position for the team..a few bumps in the road, but we haven't had to go years and years with terrible QBs.. 

[*SHRacerX*]

(07-07-2022, 12:39 PM)Tony Wrote: Allen is the most overrated QB in football.. He had some stinkers last year. Specifically against the Jaguars when he only put 6 points on the board. He had a few other games like that too.. He hasn't won shit yet.. I could see Allen having a bad year. All the pressure is on him. Every expert basically calling them the 99 rams...

One thing no one seems to mention about Allen and the Bills is the loss of Brian Dabol to the Giants.  Sure, Ken Dorsey has been his QB coach the past two seasons and was promoted to OC, but to dismiss Dabol's loss as insignificant would be a mistake. 

I like Allen and the Bills (a really distant 2nd behind Cincy and just above Carr and the Raiders), but I don't believe their division is a cake walk, either.  I am sure Belichek has spent the offseason designing a defense to stop them, and both the Jets and Dolphins should be much improved.  They will also face a first place schedule, like the Bengals.

If Tua and Wilson pan out, the AFC East could be just as tough as the AFC North, but that is a huge "if".  With so many questions surrounding the Browns and Lamar's contract issues/lack of receivers, those teams that are expected to be such tough contenders in the AFC North could end up below .500 before all is said and done.  

[*rfaulk34*]

(07-07-2022, 06:29 PM)ATOTR Wrote: AFC N had a few years where Bengals, Ravens and Steelers all made it, right?

Then, just back in 2020 - Browns, Ravens and Steelers all made it, IIRC

Yes, the AFCN has had multiple occasions where 3 teams made it.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(07-08-2022, 07:50 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: One thing no one seems to mention about Allen and the Bills is the loss of Brian Dabol to the Giants.  Sure, Ken Dorsey has been his QB coach the past two seasons and was promoted to OC, but to dismiss Dabol's loss as insignificant would be a mistake. 

I like Allen and the Bills (a really distant 2nd behind Cincy and just above Carr and the Raiders), but I don't believe their division is a cake walk, either.  I am sure Belichek has spent the offseason designing a defense to stop them, and both the Jets and Dolphins should be much improved.  They will also face a first place schedule, like the Bengals.

If Tua and Wilson pan out, the AFC East could be just as tough as the AFC North, but that is a huge "if".  With so many questions surrounding the Browns and Lamar's contract issues/lack of receivers, those teams that are expected to be such tough contenders in the AFC North could end up below .500 before all is said and done.  

Great point on Dabol who was a fantastic OC for the Bills. Plus all the pressure on Allen to go to the SuperBowl could weigh
on that Offense. True about the AFC East kind of being a dark horse to be a better Division than ours. Could happen.

Also a team that hasn't been mentioned yet in the Colts has Matt Ryan, a good OL, Jonathan Taylor and a great running 
game and Darius Leonard and a damn good Defense. I know the Colts choked their way out of the Playoffs but they could 
be a tough team in the AFC.

BTW, will try to do my scouting of the Buffalo Bills within the next 2 days SHRacer.

[*SHRacerX*]

(07-08-2022, 01:53 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Great point on Dabol who was a fantastic OC for the Bills. Plus all the pressure on Allen to go to the SuperBowl could weigh
on that Offense. True about the AFC East kind of being a dark horse to be a better Division than ours. Could happen.

Also a team that hasn't been mentioned yet in the Colts has Matt Ryan, a good OL, Jonathan Taylor and a great running 
game and Darius Leonard and a damn good Defense. I know the Colts choked their way out of the Playoffs but they could 
be a tough team in the AFC.

BTW, will try to do my scouting of the Buffalo Bills within the next 2 days SHRacer.

Looking forward to it, Nate, and sorry I didn't mean to steal your thunder about Dabol.  I just find it interesting how no one is mentioning that for the Bills.  There was one twitter poll that asked for your "overachieve" and "underachieve" team for this year. 


I chose the Raiders for the overachieve in the AFC (Eagles in NFC).  I debated the Jets and Jags, but I just think higher of Carr.  

I chose the Colts for my underachieve in the AFC (Cowboys in NFC).  Why?  Matt Ryan actually has something to do with it.  He has next to no mobility and Wentz had to be respected in his ability to pull the ball and run.  He is much more mobile than he gets credit for.  Beat the 49ers -despite really poor field conditions (rain).  He made some key plays scrambling and moving the chains with his legs.  The Colts are relying big time on Johnathon Taylor, but he carried the ball 332 times last year and also had 40 receptions.  That is a pretty huge load.  And while their defense has some studs like Leonard, I still think they have a porous secondary, especially at safety.  

On paper, their roster looks fine, but I think even their sorry division will be better in 2022 and they will be playing the entire AFC West.  I doubt they will be favored in any of those games.  I like Matt Ryan as a guy, but to win with a statue you better have pro-bowl tackles (they don't) and a ton of weapons (they also don't).  

TY Hilton was getting up there in years, but he hasn't re-signed as of yet and their depth chart has Alec Pierce as a starting outside receiver.  That is why I threw down a little coin on him to be OROTY....has huge odds.  Not as huge as Tyler Linderbaum....(+32000!)  That was worth $10.  Pierce was +5600.

[jfkbengals]

(07-08-2022, 07:50 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: One thing no one seems to mention about Allen and the Bills is the loss of Brian Dabol to the Giants.  Sure, Ken Dorsey has been his QB coach the past two seasons and was promoted to OC, but to dismiss Dabol's loss as insignificant would be a mistake. 

How could that possibly be a set back? Just think of how high our offense soared when Ken Zampese took over the OC position

EDIT: There was supposed to be a ninja at the end there, but my laptop is doing some screwy shit and won't allow me to attach it...

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(07-09-2022, 10:19 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Looking forward to it, Nate, and sorry I didn't mean to steal your thunder about Dabol.  I just find it interesting how no one is mentioning that for the Bills.  There was one twitter poll that asked for your "overachieve" and "underachieve" team for this year. 


I chose the Raiders for the overachieve in the AFC (Eagles in NFC).  I debated the Jets and Jags, but I just think higher of Carr.  

I chose the Colts for my underachieve in the AFC (Cowboys in NFC).  Why?  Matt Ryan actually has something to do with it.  He has next to no mobility and Wentz had to be respected in his ability to pull the ball and run.  He is much more mobile than he gets credit for.  Beat the 49ers -despite really poor field conditions (rain).  He made some key plays scrambling and moving the chains with his legs.  The Colts are relying big time on Johnathon Taylor, but he carried the ball 332 times last year and also had 40 receptions.  That is a pretty huge load.  And while their defense has some studs like Leonard, I still think they have a porous secondary, especially at safety.  

On paper, their roster looks fine, but I think even their sorry division will be better in 2022 and they will be playing the entire AFC West.  I doubt they will be favored in any of those games.  I like Matt Ryan as a guy, but to win with a statue you better have pro-bowl tackles (they don't) and a ton of weapons (they also don't).  

TY Hilton was getting up there in years, but he hasn't re-signed as of yet and their depth chart has Alec Pierce as a starting outside receiver.  That is why I threw down a little coin on him to be OROTY....has huge odds.  Not as huge as Tyler Linderbaum....(+32000!)  That was worth $10.  Pierce was +5600.

If anything you are helping me out and I need it for the Bills thread. Gonna go to their website and do some research 
today. Great point once again with Matt Ryan and how he is not near as mobile as Wentz, same with JT and the Colts
relying so much on him. What if he goes down? Dude is a great RB but cannot be an entire Offense.

Also forgot that the Colts play the entire AFC West. That is rough.

(07-09-2022, 10:32 AM)jfkbengals Wrote: How could that possibly be a set back?  Just think of how high our offense soared when Ken Zampese took over the OC position

EDIT:  There was supposed to be a ninja at the end there, but my laptop is doing some screwy shit and won't allow me to attach it...

We caught it JFK.

[Shake n Blake]

(07-06-2022, 07:57 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Burrow needs to show it again.
Herbert has been very very good both years but not really been elite yet.
Allen I listed all his problems earlier. He's had one great year, one mediocre year, and two bad years. Who is he? I was willing to buy in before 2022 when he regressed.

Wilson is very underrated and underrespected. 10 years in the NFL and only 1 losing season and only 3 missed games, both coming last year. He's won a Super Bowl, should have won a second SB if his HC just decided to not be a dumbass and just hand Marshawn Lynch the ball. 7 of his 10 years had a QB Rating of over 100.0, with a career low of 92.6.

104-53-1 record as a starter, been to the playoffs 8/10 years, won a playoff game in 6/10 years.

That's just consistent, sustained, excellence. Hard to do in the NFL and should be respected as such. He's going to wear a gold jacket when he's done playing.

From 2015 to 2021, Wilson is 3-5 in the playoffs, and one of those wins was very much in spite of him (he threw for 143 yards with a 63.3 rating). Not saying he isn't great, but ever since the Seahawks have been strapped by his massive contract, they haven't been a title contender.

Maybe we'll have that problem some day, who knows. But for me, Wilson is falling in with Roethlisberger as guys who only won rings with amazing defense and run games, and play elite at times, but didn't accomplish much when the teams around them regressed from amazing to just standard issue "good".

These lists are so subjective though. Your opinion I every bit as good as mine.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(07-20-2022, 01:50 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: From 2015 to 2021, Wilson is 3-5 in the playoffs, and one of those wins was very much in spite of him (he threw for 143 yards with a 63.3 rating). Not saying he isn't great, but ever since the Seahawks have been strapped by his massive contract, they haven't been a title contender.

Maybe we'll have that problem some day, who knows. But for me, Wilson is falling in with Roethlisberger as guys who only won rings with amazing defense and run games, and play elite at times, but didn't accomplish much when the teams around them regressed from amazing to just standard issue "good".

These lists are so subjective though. Your opinion I every bit as good as mine.

Yeah, probably will just have to disagree here on Wilson. Granted I don't disagree with the contract part, but heck, Aaron Rodgers is 5-5 in the playoffs during that timespan and Drew Brees was 3-4.

I know that QB Rating isn't the end-all-be-all, but Roethlisberger had 6 seasons of his QB Rating being 15% above league average or better, 0 of 25% above league average or better in an 18 year career. Wilson in his 10 year career is at 6 and 2, respectively.

[Shake n Blake]

(07-20-2022, 07:40 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Yeah, probably will just have to disagree here on Wilson. Granted I don't disagree with the contract part, but heck, Aaron Rodgers is 5-5 in the playoffs during that timespan and Drew Brees was 3-4.

I know that QB Rating isn't the end-all-be-all, but Roethlisberger had 6 seasons of his QB Rating being 15% above league average or better, 0 of 25% above league average or better in an 18 year career. Wilson in his 10 year career is at 6 and 2, respectively.

You're right. Passer rating isn't the end-all-be-all. During Wilson's career, he's only only finished top 10 in attempts twice in 10 seasons. During that same time frame, Ben finished top 10 in attempts 6 times, and that's with one season he missed due to injury.

Just look at 2018 for example. Which QB had the better season?

Wilson: 280 of 427 for 3448 yards, 35 TDs and 7 INTs (110.9 rating)

Ben: 452 of 675 for 5129 yards, 34 TDs and 16 INTs (96.5 rating)

Ben had more completions than Wilson had attempts

Wilson's passer rating looks like Aaron Rodgers, but he's throwing less than Andy Dalton. Obviously Ben was carrying much more of an offensive load.

Way to make me defend Ben though. Well played.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(07-20-2022, 05:02 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: You're right. Passer rating isn't the end-all-be-all. During Wilson's career, he's only only finished top 10 in attempts twice in 10 seasons. During that same time frame, Ben finished top 10 in attempts 6 times, and that's with one season he missed due to injury.

Just look at 2018 for example. Which QB had the better season?

Wilson: 280 of 427 for 3448 yards, 35 TDs and 7 INTs (110.9 rating)

Ben: 452 of 675 for 5129 yards, 34 TDs and 16 INTs (96.5 rating)

Ben had more completions than Wilson had attempts

Wilson's passer rating looks like Aaron Rodgers, but he's throwing less than Andy Dalton. Obviously Ben was carrying much more of an offensive load.

Way to make me defend Ben though. Well played.

Passing attempts? Come on Shake, I thought you were on team efficiency with me when it came to RBs and total rushing yards vs YPC. Don't jump ship when it comes to passing attempts. Lol

Heck, both Aaron Rodgers and Joe Burrow weren't top-10 in passing attempts in 2021. You know who was? Trevor Lawrence, Kirk Cousins, Ben Roethlisberger.

I'll take the guy with more TDs and less than 1/2 of the INTs. Ben led the league in INTs that year, you're going to have to throw more to catch back up when you keep turning the ball over. Also when you throw it shorter you need to throw more. Wilson averaged .6 yards more per attempt. If you are getting much more yards per attempt and you're not turning the ball over, you don't NEED to throw it a million times. (Plus Wilson had an extra 376 yards rushing at 5.6 yards per attempt.)

2018 Roethlisberger
8% Above Average YPA
13% Above Average Completion
6% Above Average TD%
League Average INT%
24% Above Average Sack% (as in, much less sacked)
8% Above Average QB Rating

2018 Wilson
17% Above Average YPA
8% Above Average Completion
40% Above Average TD%
12% Above Average INT% (which is good)
31% Below Average Sack% (he was getting murdered)
28% Above Average QB Rating

Steelers OL: Villanueva, Foster, Pouncey, DeCastro, Feiler (that's 2 All-Pros and 1 Pro Bowler)
Seahawks OL: Fant, Sweezy, Britt, Fluker, Ifedi (not even a single Pro Bowler)

- - - - -
We're all adults here. Don't push your poor choices of who to defend onto me.  

[Shake n Blake]

(07-20-2022, 07:15 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Passing attempts? Come on Shake, I thought you were on team efficiency with me when it came to RBs and total rushing yards vs YPC. Don't jump ship when it comes to passing attempts. Lol

Heck, both Aaron Rodgers and Joe Burrow weren't top-10 in passing attempts in 2021. You know who was? Trevor Lawrence, Kirk Cousins, Ben Roethlisberger.

I'll take the guy with more TDs and less than 1/2 of the INTs. Ben led the league in INTs that year, you're going to have to throw more to catch back up when you keep turning the ball over. Also when you throw it shorter you need to throw more. Wilson averaged .6 yards more per attempt. If you are getting much more yards per attempt and you're not turning the ball over, you don't NEED to throw it a million times. (Plus Wilson had an extra 376 yards rushing at 5.6 yards per attempt.)

2018 Roethlisberger
8% Above Average YPA
13% Above Average Completion
6% Above Average TD%
League Average INT%
24% Above Average Sack% (as in, much less sacked)
8% Above Average QB Rating

2018 Wilson
17% Above Average YPA
8% Above Average Completion
40% Above Average TD%
12% Above Average INT% (which is good)
31% Below Average Sack% (he was getting murdered)
28% Above Average QB Rating

Steelers OL: Villanueva, Foster, Pouncey, DeCastro, Feiler (that's 2 All-Pros and 1 Pro Bowler)
Seahawks OL: Fant, Sweezy, Britt, Fluker, Ifedi (not even a single Pro Bowler)

- - - - -
We're all adults here. Don't push your poor choices of who to defend onto me.  

Oh, efficiency matters most, but as you said, it's not the end all. For me, when I'm talking about the top 5 cream of the crop (ooh yeeeah), I need to see efficiency at high volume more often than not.

Ben often didn't have the efficiency.
Russ doesn't have the volume.

In 10 years, Wilson's average ranking in attempts is 16.2. Middle of the pack.

Meanwhile, Ben is at 10.1 (counting seasons he missed a few games, but not counting the time he missed nearly the entire season). Rodgers (not counting the 2 seasons he was mostly injured) is at 9.5. (Since 2012 for all QBs, since that's when Wilson came into the league)

I even rounded up Wilson's attempts from last season (he missed 3 games), which bumped him all the way up to 19th. Rodgers and our guy each missed a game last season. Otherwise, they would've ranked 10th and 12th in attempts, respectively.

The only season where Wilson combined great efficiency with high volume was 2020.

So to me, he's in the game manager category. A fantastic game manager, but a game manager nonetheless.

You say you need to see it again from Burrow, but Wilson himself has only had a season like that once, and he has never thrown for 4600 yards, which Burrow did in 16 games, mind you. The most Wilson has thrown for is 4219.

[Brownshoe]

(07-20-2022, 10:42 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Oh, efficiency matters most, but as you said, it's not the end all. For me, when I'm talking about the top 5 cream of the crop (ooh yeeeah), I need to see efficiency at high volume more often than not.

Ben often didn't have the efficiency.
Russ doesn't have the volume.

In 10 years, Wilson's average ranking in attempts is 16.2. Middle of the pack.

Meanwhile, Ben is at 10.1 (counting seasons he missed a few games, but not counting the time he missed nearly the entire season). Rodgers (not counting the 2 seasons he was mostly injured) is at 9.5.

I even rounded up Wilson's attempts from last season (he missed 3 games), which bumped him all the way up to 19th. Rodgers and our guy each missed a game last season. Otherwise, they would've ranked 10th and 12th in attempts, respectively.

The only season where Wilson combined great efficiency with high volume was 2020.

So to me, he's in the game manager category. A fantastic game manager, but a game manager nonetheless.

You say you need to see it again from Burrow, but Wilson himself has only had a season like that once, and he has never thrown for 4600 yards, which Burrow did in 16 games, mind you. The most Wilson has thrown for is 4219.

That has always been my criticism with Wilson. I feel like his early years he was able to lean on his run game and defense big time. I feel like he has definitely developed into a great game manager, but I don't think he's much more than that.

[tms]

Take away any Bengals bias and I think I would honestly still take Burrow #1 in a league-wide dispersal draft (of all positions). I wouldn't even think twice about it. He has it all. Leadership, talent, charisma, ambition, humility, toughness, intelligence. It's really the ultimate combination. What does he not have? Maybe a perfect knee... and even that he wears like a badge of honor. I feel so lucky that he's our QB.

[*bengalfan74*]

(07-20-2022, 10:58 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: That has always been my criticism with Wilson. I feel like his early years he was able to lean on his run game and defense big time. I feel like he has definitely developed into a great game manager, but I don't think he's much more than that.

Right

Wilson is a really really good QB. I would not however put him in the top tier. I'd take him over the other 25 guys though, lol.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(07-21-2022, 01:23 AM)tms Wrote: Take away any Bengals bias and I think I would honestly still take Burrow #1 in a league-wide dispersal draft (of all positions). I wouldn't even think twice about it. He has it all. Leadership, talent, charisma, ambition, humility, toughness, intelligence. It's really the ultimate combination. What does he not have? Maybe a perfect knee... and even that he wears like a badge of honor. I feel so lucky that he's our QB.

He is a terrible slider and he needs to throw the ball out of bounds and take incompletions instead of putting sacks on the OL.

All I got which is very fixable. Like you said he has about all the combinations to make the best QB ever.