Bates - No Intentions Reporting to Camp or Play on Tag

[2MinutesHate]

If Bates doesn't play, what will the Bengals do with the $13 million dollar savings? I think that excites me more than watching Bates sign the tag and then trying to figure out whether he's dogging it during the season.

[Whatever]

(07-16-2022, 12:37 PM)Earendil Wrote: Exactly. I would venture to say that most of this stalemate is coming from the agent.

Eh, at the end of the day, the agent works for the player.  Bates hired him because he wants him to play hardball and get every cent he can.  Even going back to last year, if Bates wanted to sign the Bengals extension offer, he would have.

[Soonerpeace]

These players who go this direction hopefully realize that sometimes it works out for them. If money is their motivation then don’t complain if it’s not a super bowl contender then that was your choice. If it’s not where you want to live then that was your choice. If you end up not liking your head coach,position coach, or GM then that was your choice. I compare it to these PGA tour guys versus LIV tour guys. Talor Gooch joined the LIV tour and naively thought he’d play one event and go back to the tour. What a dumb ass Okie ( I’m from Ok ha ha) My point is he’s made his bed and all that matters is if he and his agent in the end are happy. Talor Gooch and the rest of the LIV golfers are staring at losing opportunities to play in all 3 majors. It’ll be too late say oh I didn’t think they’d do that.

[BFritz21]

(07-16-2022, 03:07 PM)Whatever Wrote: Eh, at the end of the day, the agent works for the player.  Bates hired him because he wants him to play hardball and get every cent he can.  Even going back to last year, if Bates wanted to sign the Bengals extension offer, he would have.

Yeah but agents can be pretty convincing and get into players' heads and make them think they're the world. 

Look at Drew Rosendouche. Granted that most of his clients seem like arrogant pricks anyways but he gets makes them think that they're deserving of more money than anyone in the league at their position.

I think his agent convinced him since last offseason "they're not offering you what you're worth," and then, after we made the Super Bowl, it's "you were the best player on this defense and took this franchise to its first Super Bowl in 30 years......... they'll eventually realize your worth and cave or another team will."

[J24]

(07-16-2022, 12:07 AM)Whatever Wrote: The issue is that Bates's great '20 season when he had a 90.1 PFF grade is sandwiched in between poor '19 and '21 seasons where he graded 61.2 and 56.1.

Bates can play at an elite level.  He just doesn't most of the time for various reasons.  That's why he doesn't deserve to be paid like a Top 5 S and get a truck full of guaranteed money.  The Bengals were dumb to FT him.  After last year, it should have been clear an extension wasn't getting done.  

2018- He had a PFF rating of 79.9 and was one of the top Safeties in the  NFL. 

2019- he had a bad start to the season(what player here didn't) and then had a strong finish to season. As he got more comfortable playing in a new system and a new role in the defense. His play dramatically improved down the stretch of the season. 

2020- He was the best Safety in the league according PFF and made the 2nd all pro team.

2021- It's fair to say he had a bad season but he was also instrumental in the Bengals playoff run. According to pff  he had a playoff rating of 90. 

Additionally he has only missed 2 games in his entire career, has lead the team in solo tackles the past two seasons, 3 out 4 seasons he has had at least 100 tackles, he has been  2 time captain,  and since 2019 has the highest forced incompleten rate in the NFL.

To say he doesn't deserve to get a top 5 contract is a bit absurd considering what he has done and what he will likely do in coming seasons. 

[RunKijanaRun]

(07-16-2022, 06:01 PM)J24 Wrote: To say he doesn't deserve to get a top 5 contract is a bit upserd considering what he has done and what he will likely do in coming seasons. 

Did you just drop an “upserd” in there?

You’re the real MVP.

[J24]

(07-16-2022, 06:15 PM)RunKijanaRun Wrote: Did you just drop an “upserd” in there?

You’re the real MVP.

 
Yeah I can't spell Worth shit!

[ATOTR]

He is not a top tier safety. 

Justin Reid got 3/31M with 21M Guaranteed
Mathieu got 3/28 with 18M G
 DJ Reed. 3/33 with 10 G


Bates is worse than all of these guys

[CJD]

If Jessie sits out the season, he'll have no one but himself to blame when he gets a weak deal next off season. No one likes a quitter.

[fredtoast]

(07-16-2022, 07:31 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: If Jessie sits out the season, he'll have no one but himself to blame when he gets a weak deal next off season. No one likes a quitter.

he may get a great contract, but will he get $13 million more in total salary than what the Bengals offered?  That is what he would have to get in order to break even after giving up a season in the prime of his career with zero pay.

That is why I am sure he will play under the tag.  They pretty much all do.

[Whatever]

(07-16-2022, 06:01 PM)J24 Wrote: 2018- He had a PFF rating of 79.9 and was one of the top Safeties in the  NFL. 

2019- he had a bad start to the season(what player here didn't) and then had a strong finish to season. As he got more comfortable playing in a new system and a new role in the defense. His play dramatically improved down the stretch of the season. 

2020- He was the best Safety in the league according PFF and made the 2nd all pro team.

2021- It's fair to say he had a bad season but he was also instrumental in the Bengals playoff run. According to pff  he had a playoff rating of 90. 

Additionally he has only missed 2 games in his entire career, has lead the team in solo tackles the past two seasons, 3 out 4 seasons he has had at least 100 tackles, he has been  2 time captain,  and since 2019 has the highest forced incompleten rate in the NFL.

To say he doesn't deserve to get a top 5 contract is a bit absurd considering what he has done and what he will likely do in coming seasons. 

Since we've been discussing PFF grades, he didn't make their Top 101 after his rookie campaign.  He had a good year, but it wasn't elite level.

His grade for the year was still only 62.1, which is a replacement level starter.  And seriously, when we have to keep making excuses as to why a guy isn't performing at an elite level, it's usually because the guy just isn't elite.  

In '20, he played at an elite level, no debate from me.  He also made some key plays in the playoffs.  He was still garbage in the '21 regular season.

 Again, discussing PFF, they didn't even have Bates as a Top 25 S in the league entering the '20 season.  Then after his great year, we're pushing him from outside the Top 25 into the Top 5, but then not giving him a similar drop after an equally bad '21 season.  Why does one great year elevate a guy that much, but then he doesn't drop at all after a year in which he performed very poorly?  You can't even argue that bad season was an aberration after his nearly as bad '19 campaign.  If anything, '20 is the aberration if we're looking at trends.

He doesn't deserve Top 5 money because he does not consistently perform at a Top 5 level.  There is nobody that can look at his erratic levels of play throughout his career at this point and logically conclude that Bates would live up to a Top 5 S contract.  The NFL is full of one year wonders.  Look at WJIII as a great example of this.  You might gamble on a guy like that returning to top form, but not with a Top 5 contract.

[*Go Cards*]

Said at the end of the season that there was only two choices, pay Bates or release him.

Everybody understands there will not be enough money available to sign him next year, so don't get making him mad and using the tag. He already mailed it in last regular season and may again if disgruntled. For the record I would much rather he mailed it in during league play and balled out in playoffs like he did though and still like the kid.

I don't hate Bates at all even, in this league you have to get your money while you can and this will probably be his biggest contract of his career, I get it.

On the Bengals side though the tag was only smart if you knew Bates would happily play on the tag. Yet if there was a question at all about him playing or having his heart 100% into the team while doing so ? Then it was time to move along and use that $13 million on a FA that would help out Bengals more so during a win now season.

Now Bates is in a tough spot as well, being a more athletic safety has been signed. If he plays on tag and gets out played by a rookie then his value drops like a lead zeppelin before negotiations even begin on his contract. It's a mess that should have been avoided imo, Bates earned his payday in the playoffs and we should have let him cash in since we were monetarily hamstrung with Burrow, Chase, Higgins, and Wilson contracts looming.

It's sad because I want both sides to win in this deal.

[Whatever]

(07-16-2022, 07:31 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: If Jessie sits out the season, he'll have no one but himself to blame when he gets a weak deal next off season. No one likes a quitter.

I think the league has softened on that a lot.  I bet Bates and his team are looking at the Watson deal after he was out for a year, Lev Bell's big contract after sitting out a year, and all the highly drafted opt-out prospects like Chase from last year.  Plus look at all the kids skipping bowl games.  

I would be willing to bet he doesn't show for TC.  That makes signing the FT dangerous for him.  The absolute worst case scenario for Bates is Hill balls out and he stays buried on the bench after signing.  The probability of that happening increases with him skipping OTA's and TC.

As it stands, he's going to be a distraction and we can't count on him playing until he actually signs the tag.  

[Whatever]

(07-16-2022, 08:15 PM)Go Cards Wrote: Said at the end of the season that there was only two choices, pay Bates or release him.

Everybody understands there will not be enough money available to sign him next year, so don't get making him mad and using the tag. He already mailed it in last regular season and may again if disgruntled. For the record I would much rather he mailed it in during league play and balled out in playoffs like he did though and still like the kid.

I don't hate Bates at all even, in this league you have to get your money while you can and this will probably be his biggest contract of his career, I get it.

On the Bengals side though the tag was only smart if you knew Bates would happily play on the tag.  Yet if there was a question at all about him playing or having his heart 100% into the team while doing so ? Then it was time to move along and use that $13 million on a FA that would help out Bengals more so during a win now season.

Now Bates is in a tough spot as well, being a more athletic safety has been signed. If he plays on tag and gets out played by a rookie then his value drops like a lead zeppelin before negotiations even begin on his contract.   It's a mess that should have been avoided imo, Bates earned his payday in the playoffs and we should have let him cash in since we were monetarily hamstrung with Burrow, Chase, Higgins, and Wilson contracts looming.  

It's sad because I want both sides to win in this deal.

I don't hate Bates or fundamentally disagree with him trying to maximize his value, but I just think the guy is off base in his demands.  If Bates had gone out in '21 and backed up his '20 season, I would say he has a legit claim at a Top 5 contract.  But he didn't, and that's on him.  He was offered an extension last year.  He passed to bet on himself and lost.  

[MTBengalsFan]

What a difference a year makes! If Bates had been tagged last year, my attitude would have been "I don't blame him. I'd wanna leave the Bengals too!" Now the Bengals JUST missed winning the whole enchilada, and I'm thinking "you go ahead and sit the season. See what good it does ya!"

[*bfine32*]

Jessie Bates is not even the best Safety on our team. I understand he's mad about being tagged, but what are the Bengals to do? They're not going to put long-term guaranteed money into him, he can be a good starting Safety when his head is right, we have the option to tag him. We're going to give the dude $13 MIL guaranteed this year.

Personally, I would have let him walk and lock up the Honey Badger for a couple of years while the kids develop. But I cannot find anything wrong with what the Bengals are doing.

[bengaloo]

Bates didnt play well last season until the playoffs. The lack of long term contract was in his head. Imo, it will be even worse this season if he goes back on his word and ends up playing. I see no real value in any of this. Its very obvious a long term deal isnt going to get done. I'd rather let him pursue his long term deal elsewhere and the team move forward without him. Best for both sides.

[BFritz21]

(07-17-2022, 08:24 AM)bengaloo Wrote: Bates didnt play well last season until the playoffs. The lack of long term contract was in his head. Imo, it will be even worse this season if he goes back on his word and ends up playing. I see no real value in any of this. Its very obvious a long term deal isnt going to get done. I'd rather let him pursue his long term deal elsewhere and the team move forward without him. Best for both sides.

Same thing I was thinking.

At this point, it's time to face reality. This is a lose-lose situation for us. This is just going to cause a disruption in the locker room and he's probably just going to half-ass the regular season again. It might be time to just cut bait and get out. Let him go to the free agent market and see if anyone offers him anywhere close to the money that we were offering.

Do the Lions still have a need at safety? Could we potentially do a tag and trade?

The only problem with that is, like I said above, would they be willing to pay him anything close to what we were offering before the tag? 

I think that's what our front office should have sat down with Jesse and said: "listen, your agent is a douche and no other team is going to offer you 
anywhere near what we offered, so take it or leave it."

Or offered him what we were but then with an added incentive of making the Pro Bowl so he couldn't half-ass the regular season.

[Rubekahn29]

He’s living high off of being one of the only good players in a bad 2020 season. If you look at last regular season, you could argue he was the 9th most important player on the defense.

[*Go Cards*]

(07-16-2022, 10:40 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Jessie Bates is not even the best Safety on our team. I understand he's mad about being tagged, but what are the Bengals to do? They're not going to put long-term guaranteed money into him, he can be a good starting Safety when his head is right, we have the option to tag him. We're going to give the dude $13 MIL guaranteed this year.

Personally, I would have let him walk and lock up the Honey Badger for a couple of years while the kids develop. But I cannot find anything wrong with what the Bengals are doing.

There is nothing wrong with it at all and they have the right to do so, but its a gamble on both sides. 

The Bengals gamble ? Will Bates give maximum effort or feign an injury just to collect the money in our win now season. 

It would be different if the Bengals had a chance of signing him next year if he plays well. But everybody knows its not going to happen per there are bigger fish to sign swimming upstream and we are only trying to use him as a one year mercenary. One that feels underpaid and under appreciated as well. Not saying either is true but it seems to be Bates' belief and could be a bad recipe for team chemistry.  

Now there is still the incentive for Bates to play for a contract year and that is all we can hope for really at this point. 

Agree with you that Bengals should have walked away and used the $13 million in FA before getting to this juncture.