There is a significant hole on this team...

[WeezyBengal]

and in my opinion, it's going to be the pass rush/secondary.

Both go hand in hand.

In 2020 the Bengals had arguably the worst pass rush in the NFL. They averaged a little over 1 sack a game. The Bengals knew how bad their pass rush was, so they brought in Larry Ogunjobi (7 sacks last year), Trey Hendrickson (14 sacks), and BJ Hill (5.5 sacks). In 2021, they more than doubled that sack per game average to 2.5 per game (11th in the NFL). Their pass rush was exponentially better in 2021 than it was in 2020. You can directly attribute this to the players they added.

Larry Ogunjobi averaged about 70% of the snaps last year, he won't be back on the team this year. BJ Hill averaged 49% of the snaps last year in the same position, effectively backing Larry up.

Here is Larry O's production from last year compared to BJ Hills:






We can argue back and fourth about which one is actually the better player, but one thing is for sure - the Bengals are basically counting on a combination of BJ Hill and Josh Tupuo to replace the production of Larry Ogunjobi and BJ Hill. Do you feel comfortable with Josh Tupuo getting 50% of the snaps next year and providing the kind of production that BJ Hill provided?

That is no bueno, especially for a team looking to make a Super Bowl run. My questions is this: if they felt the need to bring in BOTH BJ Hill and Larry Ogunjobi last year to help with the pass rush, why do they feel comfortable not supplementing BJ Hill with another quality option?

Only time will tell, but I REALLY think this comes back to bite them during the season. I think the pass rush will suffer this year and in turn I think the pass defense will suffer. It all starts with the defensive lines push - which has taken a pretty sizeable step back IMO.

[Nicomo Cosca]

Ideally they’ll get some added production from Ossai and Carter.

[*jason*]

I like BJ Hill, but it scares me that he's starting. I wonder if it could turn out like the Wallace Gilberry situation. The guy was awesome as a rotational pass rusher, but not so much when his snap count increased when Michael Johnson left in free agency. Hopefully this is different.

[CJD]

I think it's far more likely that Hill's proportion of snaps from 2021 will be taken by Zach Carter and maybe DEs moving inside, like Cam Sample or perhaps Sam Hubbard (with Ossai on the outside on those snaps).

I do think it would have been nice if we signed Ogunjobi to a 1 year deal, but I also understand that we have young players on the Dline that we want to get snaps. I think our pass rush will be worse than it was last year, but hopefully it's not 2020 levels of bad.

[coachmcneil71]

Would have liked it if we had resigned LO, but I do like the talent or upside of the young guys. If they can contribute the pass rush should be decent.

[QueenCity]

Bengals being able to convert short yardage situations and keeping the ball on offense will balance any short comings on defense IMO.

[WeezyBengal]

(08-04-2022, 01:43 PM)QueenCity Wrote: Bengals being able to convert short yardage situations and keeping the ball on offense will balance any short comings on defense IMO.

That doesn't seem like a great strategy to me. 

[*bfine32*]

(08-04-2022, 12:39 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: and in my opinion, it's going to be the pass rush/secondary.

Both go hand in hand.

In 2020 the Bengals had arguably the worst pass rush in the NFL. They averaged a little over 1 sack a game. The Bengals knew how bad their pass rush was, so they brought in Larry Ogunjobi (7 sacks last year), Trey Hendrickson (14 sacks), and BJ Hill (5.5 sacks). In 2021, they more than doubled that sack per game average to 2.5 per game (11th in the NFL). Their pass rush was exponentially better in 2021 than it was in 2020. You can directly attribute this to the players they added.

Larry Ogunjobi averaged about 70% of the snaps last year, he won't be back on the team this year. BJ Hill averaged 49% of the snaps last year in the same position, effectively backing Larry up.

Here is Larry O's production from last year compared to BJ Hills:






We can argue back and fourth about which one is actually the better player, but one thing is for sure - the Bengals are basically counting on a combination of BJ Hill and Josh Tupuo to replace the production of Larry Ogunjobi and BJ Hill. Do you feel comfortable with Josh Tupuo getting 50% of the snaps next year and providing the kind of production that BJ Hill provided?

That is no bueno, especially for a team looking to make a Super Bowl run. My questions is this: if they felt the need to bring in BOTH BJ Hill and Larry Ogunjobi last year to help with the pass rush, why do they feel comfortable not supplementing BJ Hill with another quality option?

Only time will tell, but I REALLY think this comes back to bite them during the season. I think the pass rush will suffer this year and in turn I think the pass defense will suffer. It all starts with the defensive lines push - which has taken a pretty sizeable step back IMO.

IMO you point has one significant hole in it........Zac Carter

Dude had 102 tackles over 1/4 of them (26) were behind the LOS. He also managed 17 sacks in his 3 years as a starter. 

[*ochocincos*]

(08-04-2022, 12:39 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: We can argue back and fourth about which one is actually the better player, but one thing is for sure - the Bengals are basically counting on a combination of BJ Hill and Josh Tupuo to replace the production of Larry Ogunjobi and BJ Hill. Do you feel comfortable with Josh Tupuo getting 50% of the snaps next year and providing the kind of production that BJ Hill provided?

Tupou is 100% a NT. He's not going to get IDL pass rushing snaps.
I believe it's going to be between the rookie Carter and sophomore Cam Sample to fill the void left by Ogunjobi.
Maybe we'll see Hubbard also swing inside more if Ossai can show some worth outside.
I also believe Hill can (and will) step up to produce more as he gets more snaps.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-04-2022, 12:44 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Ideally they’ll get some added production from Ossai and Carter.

Yes, hopefully these two can stay healthy as I have huge confidence in Ossai if he does. Think he will be our 2nd best pass rusher
behind Hendrickson right off the bat this year if healthy. Carter is my question, evidently the coaches think he can be that 3-tech
we need. He was a very good pass rusher off the edge in college but this is a big transition to 3-tech DT going against Guards and
Centers instead of OT's.

We will see if he has the strength we need here. His body seems built for the position when looking at him.

My biggest question on this team is depth.

[WeezyBengal]

(08-04-2022, 02:03 PM)bfine32 Wrote: IMO you point has one significant hole in it........Zac Carter

Dude had 102 tackles over 1/4 of them (26) were behind the LOS. He also managed 17 sacks in his 3 years as a starter. 

You are counting on rookie production for a team that's goal is to win a Super Bowl. Chances are more likely than not that he doesn't come close to filling the production hole left by Ogunjobi. The point remains. 

[Whatever]

(08-04-2022, 02:29 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: You are counting on rookie production for a team that's goal is to win a Super Bowl. Chances are more likely than not that he doesn't come close to filling the production hole left by Ogunjobi. The point remains. 

What team isn't relying on any rookies in at least rotational roles?

Also keep in mind that you can rotate a DE to 3 tech on passing downs to help take up some of Larry O's slack, which we really couldn't do last year with Ossai going down at Edge.  Hill's production also hypothetically increases with more snaps.  

[*ochocincos*]

Let's actually compare Hill's total snaps including playoffs to Ogunjobi's snaps.

Ogunjobi - 493 pass rush (PR) snaps
7.0 sacks
16 QB Hits

Hill - 326 regular season PR snaps + 155 PR snaps = 481 PR snaps
7.0 sacks (5.5 regular season + 1.5 postseason)
15 QB Hits

Hill is about the same level as a pass rusher as Ogunjobi.

So really you should be seeing Hill as the Ogunjobi replacement and then a combo of Carter+Sample (+Hubbard?) as the Hill rotational replacement.

[*bfine32*]

(08-04-2022, 02:29 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: You are counting on rookie production for a team that's goal is to win a Super Bowl. Chances are more likely than not that he doesn't come close to filling the production hole left by Ogunjobi. The point remains. 

Worked out pretty good for us last year. 

WTS, I'm not "counting on it"; I'm just not "discounting it".  Others have already pointed to Hill's production. Zac produced in college and is in the perfect scenario to produce this year. Playing inside with Reader Larry O had a career year in sacks. Every team in the NFL will have a rookie on it this year and every team will have a goal of winning a Super Bowl.

Buffalo is the betting fav and I'm sure they are counting on James Cook to get them some rushing yards; hell they probably expect him to lead the team

[BengalsBong]

(08-04-2022, 01:55 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: That doesn't seem like a great strategy to me. 

Better help then trying to make a 340 pound guy your pass rushing 3 tech.

[WeezyBengal]

(08-04-2022, 03:15 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Let's actually compare Hill's total snaps including playoffs to Ogunjobi's snaps.

Ogunjobi - 493 pass rush (PR) snaps
7.0 sacks
16 QB Hits

Hill - 326 regular season PR snaps + 155 PR snaps = 481 PR snaps
7.0 sacks (5.5 regular season + 1.5 postseason)
15 QB Hits

Hill is about the same level as a pass rusher as Ogunjobi.

So really you should be seeing Hill as the Ogunjobi replacement and then a combo of Carter+Sample (+Hubbard?) as the Hill rotational replacement.

Yep - that was the point of this thread. I'm not so much worried about Hill replacing Obunjobi's production more than I am about whoever replacing Hill's. 

[*ochocincos*]

(08-04-2022, 04:12 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Yep - that was the point of this thread. I'm not so much worried about Hill replacing Obunjobi's production more than I am about whoever replacing Hill's. 

I'm not overly worried about the backup rotational IDL filling Hill's 2021 role.
I think between the 2-3 guys I listed, Bengals will get about that same level.
It might not all come from a single guy though, as they should hopefully have more options this season in the pass rush department.

[J24]

Depending on what Carter does during Preseason I could see the FO making a trade or signing a FA DT.

It's also important to note that we really haven't had much success in drafting DTs since Geno Atkins.

[Soonerpeace]

Ogunjobi signed for 8 million. He couldn’t pass his physical 2 months ago with Chicago. They offered him 3 million. He was too big of risk. B J played really well In Ogunjobi’s place. They went with the younger and healthier player. Ossai should help. I think you see some interesting packages from Lou. But this time last year everybody was worried deluxe about the pass rush? And? Let’s wait and see.

[*Synric*]

Hearing Zach Carter's name quite a bit coming out of training camp.