ranking Bengals Qb's

[PDub80]

(08-08-2022, 09:59 AM)TecmoBengals Wrote: I almost ranked him #1, but deferred to the two players who have more tenure with the franchise. I'm young enough to have not really watched Anderson but I saw Boomer play plenty games. I do think Burrow is more talented than Boomer and I'd have to check out some YouTube clips to develop an opinion about Burrow compared to Kenny. 

Oh, sure! I can't debate those who rank Anderson and/or Boomer over Burrow. I think it's interesting to hear the different criteria people go by in their rankings.

I went more by talent, on field play, ceiling, circumstances, etc.

On the guys who played longer careers I looked at who they were long term as well, which is part of why I have Carson over Boomer. I also think he overcame a lot more organizationally.

Burrow doing what he did last year, I just don't see Kenny Anderson making that happen. I don't see many QBs in NFL history doing what Burrow did when you take in all things considered. ZT being a new (historically bad) coach, previous seasons of being horrendous, knee injury, young roster, the horrendous o line, and the Bengals path to the SB. The whole 2021 season for Burrow was a masterclass in QB'ing, leadership, and toughness.

[Speedy Thomas]

I'm having trouble compiling a list. Are we ranking over the course of a career? Over a season? Personal favorite? Do we limit it to players we have seen? Here's what I got:

Best QB over a career -- Ken Anderson
Biggest "what-if" QB -- Greg Cook
Most under-appreciated QB -- Andy Dalton
Best left handed QB -- Boomer
Worst left handed QB -- Gus Frerotte
Best QB at throwing moon balls to Carl Pickens -- Jeff Blake
Best QB at almost getting killed behind an even worse offensive line than last year's -- David Klingler
Best nickname -- Jack Thompson, "The Throwin' Samoan"
Best chest-thumper -- Akili Smith
Best QB at being a better coach than he was a QB -- Sam Wyche
Best prime-time smirk by a QB -- Ryan Finley
QB I want for one game to win it all -- Joe

[TecmoBengals]

(08-08-2022, 10:29 AM)Speedy Thomas Wrote: I'm having trouble compiling a list.  Are we ranking over the course of a career?  Over a season?   Personal favorite?  Do we limit it to players we have seen?  Here's what I got:

Best QB over a career -- Ken Anderson
Biggest "what-if" QB -- Greg Cook
Most under-appreciated QB -- Andy Dalton
Best left handed QB -- Boomer
Worst left handed QB -- Gus Frerotte
Best QB at throwing moon balls to Carl Pickens -- Jeff Blake
Best QB at almost getting killed behind an even worse offensive line than last year's -- David Klingler
Best nickname -- Jack Thompson, "The Throwin' Samoan"
Best chest-thumper -- Akili Smith
Best QB at being a better coach than he was a QB -- Sam Wyche
Best prime-time smirk by a QB -- Ryan Finley
QB I want for one game to win it all -- Joe

I mostly used the entirety of a career for my ranking framework, but made an exception for Burrow and bumped him to #3. I suppose if we're looking at career stats and longevity then he's after Kenny, Boomer, Dalton, Palmer, Blake, and perhaps even Kitna. If it's only talent, he might be #1.

[PDub80]

(08-08-2022, 10:36 AM)TecmoBengals Wrote: I mostly used the entirety of a career for my ranking framework, but made an exception for Burrow and bumped him to #3. I suppose if we're looking at career stats and longevity then he's after Kenny, Boomer, Dalton, Palmer, Blake, and perhaps even Kitna. If it's only talent, he might be #1.

That was kind of my thing... I cannot hold longevity against him, but I certainly can prop him up for reaching Kenny & Boomer'd pinnacle achievement in year 2 while comkng off a blown out knee and with a worse org & roster.

[fredtoast]

(08-08-2022, 10:15 AM)PDub80 Wrote: Burrow doing what he did last year, I just don't see Kenny Anderson making that happen.

That is just because you never saw Anderson play.

Burrow "almost" led the league in passer rating.  Anderson did it 4 times.  That was the NFL career record for 15 years.  Steve Young is still the only QB to lead the league more times than Anderson.

Joe Burrow led the league with a 70.4% completion percentage when the league-wide completion percentage was 64.8.  In 1982 Anderson led the league with a 70.6% completion percentage when the league-wide completion percentage was 56.4%.  That would be the single season NFL record for TWENTY-SEVEN YEARS.


Anderson was also a much better scrambler than Burrow.  Ken had 3 seasons where he rushed for 200+ yards with an average over 7.0 per carry.  When Anderson retired in '86 the only other QB in NFL history with 30K passing yards and 2K rushing yards was Fran Tarkenton.

Burrow is good, and may end up being better than Anderson.  But Anderson was more than just "good".  He was "NFL record" good.

[TecmoBengals]

(08-08-2022, 11:59 AM)fredtoast Wrote: That is just because you never saw Anderson play.

Burrow "almost" led the league in passer rating.  Anderson did it 4 times.  That was the NFL career record for 15 years.  Steve Young is still the only QB to lead the league more times than Anderson.

Joe Burrow led the league with a 70.4% completion percentage when the league-wide completion percentage was 64.8.  In 1982 Anderson led the league with a 70.6% completion percentage when the league-wide completion percentage was 56.4%.  That would be the single season NFL record for TWENTY-SEVEN YEARS.


Anderson was also a much better scrambler than Burrow.  Ken had 3 seasons where he rushed for 200+ yards with an average over 7.0 per carry.  When Anderson retired in '86 the only other QB in NFL history with 30K passing yards and 2K rushing yards was Fran Tarkenton.

Burrow is good, and may end up being better than Anderson.  But Anderson was more than just "good".  He was "NFL record" good.

& this post provides good examples of why it is a shame Anderson isn't in the NFL HoF.

[Speedy Thomas]

I agree 100% with Fred. We just have to cut these youngsters some slack. They don't know what they don't know,

[Essex Johnson]

(08-08-2022, 11:59 AM)fredtoast Wrote: That is just because you never saw Anderson play.

Burrow "almost" led the league in passer rating.  Anderson did it 4 times.  That was the NFL career record for 15 years.  Steve Young is still the only QB to lead the league more times than Anderson.

Joe Burrow led the league with a 70.4% completion percentage when the league-wide completion percentage was 64.8.  In 1982 Anderson led the league with a 70.6% completion percentage when the league-wide completion percentage was 56.4%.  That would be the single season NFL record for TWENTY-SEVEN YEARS.


Anderson was also a much better scrambler than Burrow.  Ken had 3 seasons where he rushed for 200+ yards with an average over 7.0 per carry.  When Anderson retired in '86 the only other QB in NFL history with 30K passing yards and 2K rushing yards was Fran Tarkenton.

Burrow is good, and may end up being better than Anderson.  But Anderson was more than just "good".  He was "NFL record" good.

You nailed it .. only point I will add
Anderson warrants HOF, Burrow is one.a possible track to HOF

[PDub80]

(08-08-2022, 11:59 AM)fredtoast Wrote: That is just because you never saw Anderson play.

Burrow "almost" led the league in passer rating.  Anderson did it 4 times.  That was the NFL career record for 15 years.  Steve Young is still the only QB to lead the league more times than Anderson.

Joe Burrow led the league with a 70.4% completion percentage when the league-wide completion percentage was 64.8.  In 1982 Anderson led the league with a 70.6% completion percentage when the league-wide completion percentage was 56.4%.  That would be the single season NFL record for TWENTY-SEVEN YEARS.


Anderson was also a much better scrambler than Burrow.  Ken had 3 seasons where he rushed for 200+ yards with an average over 7.0 per carry.  When Anderson retired in '86 the only other QB in NFL history with 30K passing yards and 2K rushing yards was Fran Tarkenton.

Burrow is good, and may end up being better than Anderson.  But Anderson was more than just "good".  He was "NFL record" good.

A few quick notes here to not really shed light, but more or less throw water on these % statistics of Kenny Anderson...

- Over his career, Anderson's completion % is only 3% points higher than the league avg you just listed. That puts him middle of the road.

- In the interest of fairness - removing the 2 years he spent as a backup the last 2 seasons of his career, Anderson only had a completion % higher than 57% 7 out of 14 years.

^ Not blowing my mind with that.

- The year he throw for 70.6%, Anderson only attempted 309 passes. Joe Burrow attempted of 520 while hitting 70.4%.

In Anderson's only season attempting over 400 passes he only completed 62.6% of his throws. Not a coincidence because, the season he had the next closest number of attempts to his career high 479 (377) he only completed 60.5% of his throws. Quite below the league avg you listed.

To further just drown this Kenny Anderson's better than Burrow stuff out...

Anderson's QBR that 70% season = 95.3
Burrow = 108.3

Let alone Burrow trouncing him in Yards per attempt and per completion.

Let alone Anderson having the greatest OT in history along with another should be HOF O lineman in Max Montoya to go with an outstanding cast of skill guys and other strong linemen.

Let alone Anderson having a HOF coaching staff running a unique offense where defenses hadn't seen and were not in any way prepared for anything like it. Did Burrow have that advantage? No. He llayed an absurd schedule against incredibly comllex defenses.

Let alone the league being geared to stop the run and not coming after the passer as they do to today. Don't believe me? Look at the number of tackles D linemen had in the 70s and 80s compared to today. 

Let alone Anderson only played in 9 games that 70% season. Could he have held up for 17 games Burrow did while performing that way?

Let alone was Anderson coming off a blown out knee to start that one?

Let alone.... Honestly, the context and nuance and deep dive into Burrow vs Anderson isn't even remotely fair. Not even remotely. Burrow's circumstances and statistics obliterate Anderson's banner year when all things are considered. When you take into account Anderson's 7 below avg seasons, I just don't see how you can stack him up to Burrow in any way, shape, or form.

The future is unknown. So, perhaps Burrow fizzles out. But Joe Burrow would have to have 7 horrifically basic, lackluster years to match Anderson in that category.

[KillerGoose]

(08-08-2022, 04:00 PM)PDub80 Wrote: A few quick notes here to not really shed light, but more or less throw water on these % statistics of Kenny Anderson...

- Over his career, Anderson's completion % is only 3% points higher than the avg you just listed.

- In the interest if fairness - removing the 2 years he spent as a backup the last 2 seasons of his career, Anderson only had a completion % higher than 57% 7 out of 14 years.

^ Not blowing my mind with that.

- The year he throw for 70.6%, Anderson only attempted 309 passes. Joe Burrow attempted of 520 while hitting 70.4%.

In Anderson's only season attempting over 400 passes he only completed 62.6% of his throws. Not a coincidence because,the season he had the next closest number of attempts to his csreer high 479 (377) he only completed 60.5% of his throws.

To further just drown this Kenny Anderson's better than Burrow stuff out...

Anderson's QBR that 70% season = 95.3
Burrow = 108.3

Let alone Burrow trouncing him in Yards per attempt and per completion.

Let alone Anderson having the greatest OT in history along with another should be HOF O lineman in Max Montoya along with an outstanding cast of skill guys and other strong linemen.

Let along Anderson having a HOF coaching staff running a unique offense where defenses hadn't seen and were ilprepared for anything like it? Did Burrow have that advantage?

Let along the league being geared to stop the run and not coming after the passer as they do to today. Don't believe me? Look at the number of tackles D linemen had in the 70s and 80s compared to today. 

Let alone Anderson only played in 9 games that 70% season. Could he have held up for 17 games Burrow did while performing that way?

Let alone was Anderson coming off a blown out knee to start that one?

Let alone.... Honestly, the context and nuance and deep dive into Burrow vs Anderson isn't even remotely fair. Not even remotely. Burrow's circumstances and statistics obliterate Anderson's banner year when all things are considered. When you take into account Anderson's 7 below avg seasons, I just don't see how you can stack him up to Burrow in any way, shape, or form.

The future is unknown. So, perhaps Burrow fizzles out. But Joe Burrow would have to have 7 horrifically basic, lackluster years to match Anderson in that category.

In the interest of fairness, most of what you posted is just a direct comparison of statistics and that isn't quite apples-to-apples. The game has changed quite a bit, and passing wasn't quite as easy then as it is now. Here are Anderson's era adjusted metrics...

66.1% completion percentage, 43,795 yards, 7.62 YPA, 95 QB rating

Burrow has yet to post a season as good as Anderson's 1982, 1974 and 1981 seasons. I actually had a post about this earlier in the off-season, where I era adjusted all Bengals QB's throughout franchise history and had ranked them. Here are a few statlines that Burrow would have to post in order to be as dominant as Anderson in those respective seasons...

1981 Ken Anderson - 72% completion percentage, 39 TDs, 6 INTs, 4500 yards, 115.4 rating. 
1974 Ken Anderson - My spreadsheet has invalid references, but I was able to re-compute his adjusted passer rating. It is a little over 111. 

Everything is invalid for 1982. I deleted a bunch of my data, I guess. Here is the link to the original analysis I did of this a few months ago. Burrow has a long way to go before he is considered better than Anderson. Burrow's season last year would have been Anderson's fifth best season, adjusting for era. 

[Mer]

(08-08-2022, 04:28 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: In the interest of fairness, most of what you posted is just a direct comparison of statistics and that isn't quite apples-to-apples. The game has changed quite a bit, and passing wasn't quite as easy then as it is now. Here are Anderson's era adjusted metrics...

66.1% completion percentage, 43,795 yards, 7.62 YPA, 95 QB rating

Burrow has yet to post a season as good as Anderson's 1982, 1974 and 1981 seasons. I actually had a post about this earlier in the off-season, where I era adjusted all Bengals QB's throughout franchise history and had ranked them. Here are a few statlines that Burrow would have to post in order to be as dominant as Anderson in those respective seasons...

1981 Ken Anderson - 72% completion percentage, 39 TDs, 6 INTs, 4500 yards, 115.4 rating. 
1974 Ken Anderson - My spreadsheet has invalid references, but I was able to re-compute his adjusted passer rating. It is a little over 111. 

Everything is invalid for 1982. I deleted a bunch of my data, I guess. Here is the link to the original analysis I did of this a few months ago. Burrow has a long way to go before he is considered better than Anderson. Burrow's season last year would have been Anderson's fifth best season, adjusting for era. 

Not to argue, just a thought. If you're going to adjust the offensive stats don't you need to consider adjusting the defensive stats also? I mean the defenses Anderson played against.

I mean if those defensive players worked out the way today's players do don't you think that would affect the stats as well?

[KillerGoose]

(08-08-2022, 04:37 PM)Mer Wrote: Not to argue, just a thought. If you're going to adjust the offensive stats don't you need to consider adjusting the defensive stats also? I mean the defenses Anderson played against.

I don't believe it would change the results. Era adjusting is just figuring out their relative performance and then bringing modern day statistics into it. I used Z-Score as my methodology, but I believe there are others. It's not fundamentally changing how they play, it is just providing a modern lens on historical data. Having a passer rating of 98 isn't that impressive today, but doing it when the league average was 72.6 is phenomenal. 

What you are referring to would be best fit for a simulation with adjusted metrics.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-08-2022, 09:43 AM)PDub80 Wrote: 1: Burrow (No one below Burrow on this list is doing what he did last year)
2: Anderson (When given a great roster he did a ton with it - HOF stable of coaches doing unique things and some incredible players)
3: Palmer (Overcame a lot while w the Bengals and had strong success elsewhere)
4: Boomer (Same as Anderson, but was more of a 1 or 2 year wonder while in Cincy in my eyes. Left for NYJ and never looked good again without a great cast. Peak Palmer > Peak Boomer)
5: Dalton/Kitna (They're virtually mirror images of each other so they are tied)
6: Blake (Honestly, I have him higher than the  Kitna/Dalton bros in my heart, but he didn't have the talent around him to really see what he could do)
7: The revolving carousel of guys that don't really matter

Hard to disagree with any of that PDub80. Nice post.

[Tony]

Burrow is already the best QB in Bengals history.. Put Kenny and Boomer wherever you want, they are the only other ones that matter..

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-08-2022, 05:02 PM)Tony Wrote: Burrow is already the best QB in Bengals history.. Put Kenny and Boomer wherever you want,  they are the only other ones that matter..

I think that will be without question after this season when he breaks records on the way to a SuperBowl victory.

[tms]

I put Burrow at #1. No other QB could will his team to victory. Don't get me wrong, they were good (at least some of them were good) but they never possessed that magic. The others had talent... but never that magic.

[The D.O.Z.]

For me, a fan since ‘87, my list goes:

Burrow (love everything about this kid. The fact he steered this team to the playoffs to even give us a chance at a playoff run was nothing short of amazing. Coming off a horrific injury, no preseason, a 7-5 record before “the run”, etc. Kid is just special and I can’t wait to see where this team goes with him at the helm!)

Boomer (the QB that made me a Bengals fan for life. His moxy, his uniqueness being a lefty, his play action and no huddle handling. I was in 5th grade when we lost that SB and my hatred for San Fran lasts to this day.)

Palmer (made us dangerous again. His demeanor was yin to Chad’s yang, watching those two together was fun! For the first time in years the Bengals had a franchise QB and the future looked bright. Bye bye doormat moniker!)

Kitna (while I would scream at my tv at occassional boneheaded mistakes, the guy made it work with what he had. His arm wasn’t the strongest, he was mid tier at reading defenses, but damn did he make it work. In a time when we needed a “bridge” guy to play AND tutor Palmer, you couldn’t ask for a better guy. I was mad as hell when we let him leave, not Palmer level mad…but pretty mad. [emoji2959])

Andy (we needed stability badly when Carson took his ball and went home and we got it. Its a shame he couldn’t get that playoff monkey off his back, as he is a great guy and team mate and did a lot for this team when many expected us to be bad. )

Blake (The Bengals were so bad in the 90s, I spent more time as a teenager chasin’ tail [emoji16] and partying than I did watching Bengals games. I just remember no one had a prettier moonball than Blake. He and Dillon were the only reasons for me to tune in on the occassional Sunday.)


I was alive but not old enough to know whats what when Kenny was balling out so I can’t include him on MY list.

[fredtoast]

(08-08-2022, 04:00 PM)PDub80 Wrote: In Anderson's only season attempting over 400 passes he only completed 62.6% of his throws. Not a coincidence because, the season he had the next closest number of attempts to his career high 479 (377) he only completed 60.5% of his throws. Quite below the league avg you listed.

I have no idea what you are talking about.  The only season Anderson attempted more than 400 passes he won the league MVP.

When Anderson completed 62.6% of his passes in 1981 that was 8 points higher than the league average (54.6)

When Anderson completed 60.5% of his passes in 1975 that was also 8 points higher than the league average (52.5)

In 2021 Burrow completed 70.4% of his passes but that was only 5.6 points higher than the league average (64.8)

[fredtoast]

(08-08-2022, 05:25 PM)tms Wrote: I put Burrow at #1. No other QB could will his team to victory. Don't get me wrong, they were good (at least some of them were good) but they never possessed that magic. The others had talent... but never that magic.

If Joe can will the team to victory then he should have his ass beaten for only winning 2 games his rookie season.

[fredtoast]

(08-08-2022, 04:00 PM)PDub80 Wrote:  When you take into account Anderson's 7 below avg seasons, I just don't see how you can stack him up to Burrow in any way, shape, or form.

So far half of Burrows NFL seasons  have been below average.

Anderson barely played his rookie season ('71) and his last 2 seasons ('85-'86).  In the 13 years in between he finished in the top 10 in passer rating 9 times.