There is a significant hole on this team...

[fredtoast]

(08-05-2022, 09:12 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Key word: "Hope" 

It is the same way with every team in the league.  No team can pay top money at every position.  Any team that wants to compete for a championship has to get some production from cheaper players on first contracts.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-05-2022, 09:09 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: This isn't a BJ Hill vs Ogunjobi thread. I'm fine with them essentially paying BJ Hill over Ogunjobi. 

This is a thread about the hole left behind by Ogunjobi leaving. That productivity was never replaced. They are counting on an unknown to basically fill that 7 sack, 16 QB hit, 14 tackle for loss void. 

50% of the snaps are going to go to who? Either someone who isn't good or someone we have no idea what they bring to the table (Carter). 

IMO the Bengals didn't do enough to address this in the off-season. They are razor thin at interior DL and it could come back to significantly bite them. 

I know it is your thread Weezy but that is exactly what this is about. BJ Hill vs Ogunjobi. BJ Hill is replacing Ogunjobi in the 
starting spot at 3-tech. Zach Carter, Cam Sample and Sam Hubbard will be trying to replace what BJ Hill did behind Ogunjobi.

[fredtoast]

(08-04-2022, 10:27 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Geno too once Thornton benched himself. Stand up thing to do BTW.

He never benched himself.  Thornton was taking snaps at DE instead of DT due to an injury.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-05-2022, 01:53 PM)fredtoast Wrote: He never benched himself.  Thornton was taking snaps at DE instead of DT due to an injury.

I remember John saying something about Geno needing to play DT at the very least.

That was a long time ago though. I could be wrong.

[WeezyBengal]

(08-05-2022, 01:42 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I know it is your thread Weezy but that is exactly what this is about. BJ Hill vs Ogunjobi. BJ Hill is replacing Ogunjobi in the 
starting spot at 3-tech. Zach Carter, Cam Sample and Sam Hubbard will be trying to replace what BJ Hill did behind Ogunjobi.

No I think it's more so BJ Hill's roster spot last year vs. Carter, Sample, etc. roster spot this year. Those are the guys that are replacing BJ Hills productivity and snaps from last year. 

[J24]

(08-05-2022, 02:04 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I remember John saying something about Geno needing to play DT at the very least.

That was a long time ago though. I could be wrong.

It was actually Pat Sims that he said that about.Thorton never played with Geno.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-05-2022, 02:34 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: No I think it's more so BJ Hill's roster spot last year vs. Carter, Sample, etc. roster spot this year. Those are the guys that are replacing BJ Hills productivity and snaps from last year. 

Well yeah, BJ Hill is just moving up into Ogunjobi's spot is all. Hopefully those 2 can play as well as BJ did for us last season.

All I know is I like Cam Sample already who has gained some weight so he can play 3-tech and Carter has been impressing.

(08-05-2022, 02:54 PM)J24 Wrote: It was actually Pat Sims that he said that about.Thorton never played with Geno.

Ahh, thanks J24. That is what was up. I liked Sims more than Thornton at the time too. 

[*Go Cards*]

(08-05-2022, 09:12 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: You have no way of knowing that. They could also suck. 

Sorry, but during this 2-3 year Super Bowl window I'm not willing to chance it on rookies and second year players who have never played a snap in the NFL. 

Who do you suggest the Bengals add to alleviate your worries that is realistic ?

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-05-2022, 07:25 PM)Go Cards Wrote: Who do you suggest the Bengals add to alleviate your worries that is realistic ?

Sure would be nice to hear an idea or a solution to fill this so called hole no doubt lol

All I have been hearing and seeing is Zachary Carter playing great behind BJ Hill.

Might not be a hole at all after all if this is the case.

[sandwedge]

(08-05-2022, 07:25 PM)Go Cards Wrote: Who do you suggest the Bengals add to alleviate your worries that is realistic ?

I was going to ask the same thing! LoL

[Bengalfan4life27c]

Their is a boy named SUH who is a little long in the tooth who could be productive as a rotational player

[fredtoast]

You know what I see here? . . . A lesson on "perspective".

Here is a list of players who started at least half of the '19 season for us (8 games).

John Ross
Billy Price
Michael Jordan
Auden Tate
B.W. Webb (I barely remember this guy and he started 12 games)
Nick Vigil
Bobby Hart

John Jerry and Andre Smith started a combined 10 games and never played again.

Renell Wren even started 2 games.


But now we have a "significant" hole in our roster because we are sketchy at back up 3T.

I am LOVING this.

[samhain]

I'm not overly concerned about the d-line or the secondary until they give me a reason to be in meaningful games.

It's starting to sound like a broken record, but the Bengals need to start planning to shell out money to keep their core intact.

The way to do that and still field a deep roster is by making smart, effective draft picks in middle rounds to fill rotational roles and eventually become significant contributors. That's exactly what I see them doing.

Before the 2020 draft, the linebackers depth sucked. They used several picks on the position. Now the team has good, fairly experienced linebacker depth. In addition to that, they snagged Kareem, who's shown he can contribute at DE who needed.

Before the 2021 draft, they needed depth on both lines. They drafted Ossai and Sample and Shelvin. Who knows what Shelvin is at this point? Ossai is a guy that seems capable he can get on the field, and Sample was solid and has a year of NFL seasoning under his belt.

This year, they addressed the needs in the secondary with Hill, Taylor-Britt, and Tycen Anderson. They added Carter to fill out the depth chart behind BJ Hill. You also have flotsam like Wyatt and Gunter hanging around.

A veteran depth signing here and there might not be the worst idea, but if some or many of the names I just typed don't pan out, then the team is in deep shit. I actually feel like the staff has a pretty good idea of what they are doing and trust that they have guys in house that can step into the needed roles.

As for what they might actually need, I'm still a bit worried about the backup quarterback and the 3rd down back positions. If Evans can't stay healthy, I don't think the current plan with Perine is all that potent. Mixon apparently doesn't have a lot of interest in blocking, or perhaps he's just not good enough at it to be capable in the role. It's not a huge issue, but I think they could do better. This issue was exposed badly in the Super Bowl, and not much was done to address it at all in the offseason. Gio was a terrific blocker and was practically perfect in that role. His absence probably stung a little last season. He was making too much money, so I see the logic behind the cut, but the role has yet to be effectively filled.

[Soonerpeace]

(08-06-2022, 11:36 AM)samhain Wrote: I'm not overly concerned about the d-line or the secondary until they give me a reason to be in meaningful games.

It's starting to sound like a broken record, but the Bengals need to start planning to shell out money to keep their core intact.

The way to do that and still field a deep roster is by making smart, effective draft picks in middle rounds to fill rotational roles and eventually become significant contributors. That's exactly what I see them doing.

Before the 2020 draft, the linebackers depth sucked. They used several picks on the position. Now the team has good, fairly experienced linebacker depth. In addition to that, they snagged Kareem, who's shown he can contribute at DE who needed.

Before the 2021 draft, they needed depth on both lines. They drafted Ossai and Sample and Shelvin. Who knows what Shelvin is at this point? Ossai is a guy that seems capable he can get on the field, and Sample was solid and has a year of NFL seasoning under his belt.

This year, they addressed the needs in the secondary with Hill, Taylor-Britt, and Tycen Anderson. They added Carter to fill out the depth chart behind BJ Hill. You also have flotsam like Wyatt and Gunter hanging around.

A veteran depth signing here and there might not be the worst idea, but if some or many of the names I just typed don't pan out, then the team is in deep shit. I actually feel like the staff has a pretty good idea of what they are doing and trust that they have guys in house that can step into the needed roles.

As for what they might actually need, I'm still a bit worried about the backup quarterback and the 3rd down back positions. If Evans can't stay healthy, I don't think the current plan with Perine is all that potent. Mixon apparently doesn't have a lot of interest in blocking, or perhaps he's just not good enough at it to be capable in the role. It's not a huge issue, but I think they could do better. This issue was exposed badly in the Super Bowl, and not much was done to address it at all in the offseason. Gio was a terrific blocker and was practically perfect in that role. His absence probably stung a little last season. He was making too much money, so I see the logic behind the cut, but the role has yet to be effectively filled.

Excellent and comprehensive post. Without Cappa and Collins the OL has been awful in camp. That’s worrisome. I think it’s not completely indicative of disaster. I think the front 7 defense is pretty good. The defense is usually better early in camp. I think the offense will be fine but they need to get healthy soon so they can gel.

[Luvnit2]

(08-04-2022, 12:39 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: and in my opinion, it's going to be the pass rush/secondary.

Both go hand in hand.

In 2020 the Bengals had arguably the worst pass rush in the NFL. They averaged a little over 1 sack a game. The Bengals knew how bad their pass rush was, so they brought in Larry Ogunjobi (7 sacks last year), Trey Hendrickson (14 sacks), and BJ Hill (5.5 sacks). In 2021, they more than doubled that sack per game average to 2.5 per game (11th in the NFL). Their pass rush was exponentially better in 2021 than it was in 2020. You can directly attribute this to the players they added.

Larry Ogunjobi averaged about 70% of the snaps last year, he won't be back on the team this year. BJ Hill averaged 49% of the snaps last year in the same position, effectively backing Larry up.

Here is Larry O's production from last year compared to BJ Hills:






We can argue back and fourth about which one is actually the better player, but one thing is for sure - the Bengals are basically counting on a combination of BJ Hill and Josh Tupuo to replace the production of Larry Ogunjobi and BJ Hill. Do you feel comfortable with Josh Tupuo getting 50% of the snaps next year and providing the kind of production that BJ Hill provided?

That is no bueno, especially for a team looking to make a Super Bowl run. My questions is this: if they felt the need to bring in BOTH BJ Hill and Larry Ogunjobi last year to help with the pass rush, why do they feel comfortable not supplementing BJ Hill with another quality option?

Only time will tell, but I REALLY think this comes back to bite them during the season. I think the pass rush will suffer this year and in turn I think the pass defense will suffer. It all starts with the defensive lines push - which has taken a pretty sizeable step back IMO.

I guess if you only take into account our losing Larry O. this would be a concern. But Carter will take some snaps and Ossai will take some pass rush snaps on 3rd down at DE pushing Hubbard inside.

As for the secondary, Apple got better as the year went on, Bates admitted he did not give 100% effort this first half of 2021. We also have a few rookies in the secondary that I think will surprise some fans named Britt and Hill. I think our defense will also be better in 2022 because our running game behind our new OL will be better, our 3rd down offensive efficiency will be better and we will be better in the redzone.

I am not worried, I am excited for 2022 for the Bengals to prove all of the naysayers wrong a 2nd year in a row. The experts flopped on predictions for the Bengals in 2021 and they are doubling down on the stupidity. This is a very good Bengals roster and like all good rosters they need to avoid key injuries (especially at QB). If they do, look out NFL in 2022.

[Soonerpeace]

(08-05-2022, 09:09 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: This isn't a BJ Hill vs Ogunjobi thread. I'm fine with them essentially paying BJ Hill over Ogunjobi. 

This is a thread about the hole left behind by Ogunjobi leaving. That productivity was never replaced. They are counting on an unknown to basically fill that 7 sack, 16 QB hit, 14 tackle for loss void. 

50% of the snaps are going to go to who? Either someone who isn't good or someone we have no idea what they bring to the table (Carter). 

IMO the Bengals didn't do enough to address this in the off-season. They are razor thin at interior DL and it could come back to significantly bite them. 

I understand where you are coming from. But it’s hindsight sort of. I mean we had no idea we’d get that production out of those 2 this time last year. It’s about money. When they spend money it’s really like a business. It’s a spread sheet or balance sheet. How much to spend on each position group.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

I think the biggest holes on this team now are...

1. LG
2. CB (I don't trust Apple)
3. Punter
4. #4 WR

Not sure I see DT even being a top-4 concern right now. Even if we went top-5, I would put either LB (Wilson had high highs, low lows, very inconsistent, iffy on Pratt) or Collins' back there.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-06-2022, 11:36 AM)samhain Wrote: I'm not overly concerned about the d-line or the secondary until they give me a reason to be in meaningful games.  

It's starting to sound like a broken record, but the Bengals need to start planning to shell out money to keep their core intact.

The way to do that and still field a deep roster is by making smart, effective draft picks in middle rounds to fill rotational roles and eventually become significant contributors.  That's exactly what I see them doing.  

Before the 2020 draft, the linebackers depth sucked.  They used several picks on the position.  Now the team has good, fairly experienced linebacker depth.  In addition to that, they snagged Kareem, who's shown he can contribute at DE who needed.

Before the 2021 draft, they needed depth on both lines.  They drafted Ossai and Sample and Shelvin.  Who knows what Shelvin is at this point?  Ossai is a guy that seems capable he can get on the field, and Sample was solid and has a year of NFL seasoning under his belt.

This year, they addressed the needs in the secondary with Hill, Taylor-Britt, and Tycen Anderson.  They added Carter to fill out the depth chart behind BJ Hill.  You also have flotsam like Wyatt and Gunter hanging around.

A veteran depth signing here and there might not be the worst idea, but if some or many of the names I just typed don't pan out, then the team is in deep shit.  I actually feel like the staff has a pretty good idea of what they are doing and trust that they have guys in house that can step into the needed roles.  

As for what they might actually need, I'm still a bit worried about the backup quarterback and the 3rd down back positions.  If Evans can't stay healthy, I don't think the current plan with Perine is all that potent.  Mixon apparently doesn't have a lot of interest in blocking, or perhaps he's just not good enough at it to be capable in the role.  It's not a huge issue, but I think they could do better.  This issue was exposed badly in the Super Bowl, and not much was done to address it at all in the offseason.  Gio was a terrific blocker and was practically perfect in that role.  His absence probably stung a little last season.  He was making too much money, so I see the logic behind the cut, but the role has yet to be effectively filled.

Great post Samhain. Yes I think we are at the point of needing to add players in the Draft as rotational players like you say
while keeping our roster intact. It is a great place to be and a place I cannot remember in all my time as a Bengals fan. 

These draft picks need to pan out and it gives me hope that they will if they don't get injured with the way guys like Logan
Wilson have. We did it the right way and went in and got the dudes in FA so we have a great foundation around Burrow and
company. Chase was a no brainer but there were lots on here including myself that would of been fine with Sewell or Pitts 
just the same, we clearly made the right choice there.

I just hope we aren't picking that early in the Draft for a long damn time and when we do we need to try and do what these
guys did the last 3 years in building everything back up again. It was a miraculous turn around as we saw last season and in 
our SuperBowl run.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-06-2022, 05:08 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I think the biggest holes on this team now are...

1. LG
2. CB (I don't trust Apple)
3. Punter
4. #4 WR

Not sure I see DT even being a top-4 concern right now. Even if we went top-5, I would put either LB (Wilson had high highs, low lows, very inconsistent, iffy on Pratt) or Collins' back there.

Carman has been a Training Camp winner already, sure hope he keeps it up and takes that hole off your list.

Promising hearing Carman playing well but we need to see it in the regular season or it don't mean anything.

Still nice we haven't been hearing about him being out of shape at all or about any back problems.

Actually saw Jackson leading the OL when doing sprints, he must be in damn good shape unlike last TC.

[WeezyBengal]

To start the season:

28th in pass rush win rate
20th in pressure rate
27th in pass rush grade

The defense has been OK - but pass rush is definitely an issue.