My Theory as to our Offensive Ineptitude

[RegularGuy22]

(09-19-2022, 10:45 AM)casear2727 Wrote: "If they haven't "gelled" by now they aren't going to."  Do you understand how ignorant this looks?  Do you also understand that most of us know as much, and most likely more, than you do about football?


Again let me help you since you comment like a teenager...

"In my opinion, if they haven't "gelled" by now they aren't going to."

Notice the headline of this thread?  "My theory as to our offensive ineptitude". This is a mature adult speaking with other mature adults that understands that we all know football and he isnt telling us how things are or will be, unlike you.  It is very annoying, especially after having to watch the shitshow the last 2 games to come on here and have some person tell us all how it is and how it will be as if you are some future seeing football guru.

Actually your responses to my opinions look annoying and ignorant. It's good to know "mature" adults like you are here to correct others if they don't answer and choose the exact correct words like you want them to.

[THE PISTONS]

They ran 100 plays on Offense in Game 1. At some point, we gotta stop blaming not playing 20 preseason snaps.

The offensive woes are largely this team not knowing how to beat Cover 2. Take big plays away and they struggle.

[casear2727]

(09-19-2022, 11:34 AM)RegularGuy22 Wrote: Actually your responses to my opinions look annoying and ignorant. It's good to know "mature" adults like you are here to correct others if they don't answer and choose the exact correct words like you want them to.

You're welcome, maybe you will do better.

[Sled21]

(09-19-2022, 11:35 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: They ran 100 plays on Offense in Game 1. At some point, we gotta stop blaming not playing 20 preseason snaps.

The offensive woes are largely this team not knowing how to beat Cover 2. Take big plays away and they struggle.

What Joe said....

Quote:ARLINGTON, Texas _ Joe Burrow says the 0-2 Bengals won't panic after Sunday's second straight last-snap loss on a field goal, this one 20-17 to the Cowboys.

"No panic. We've lost two games before. We lost two straight games several times last year," Burrow said of his AFC champs who lost two straight twice. "There's a lot of football to be played. We moved on from those games and made the corrections we needed to make. We have a great coaching staff that will do that and we have the players to make it happen. We just have to find some "Two Tampa Beaters," and get some explosive plays."

_Burrow referred to The Tampa Two, a soft zone Dallas employed Sunday to bottle up the Bengals' downfield strikes. His longest play was a 19-yard pass to Tee Higgins. What may be less of a silver lining and more of a blueprint was the tying 19-play, 83-yard touchdown drive that consumed 8:54 of the fourth quarter.

"We're going to have a lot of drives like that the way defenses are playing us. We have to bank that one and remember how that feels," Burrow said.
_After Burrow finished 24 of 36 for 199 yards with just a touchdown on barely six yards per pass, he offered, "We're going to have to play a different way this year. We need to figure it out quickly to get into the win column."

[THE PISTONS]

These coaches...in Year 4 should know how to beat Tampa 2. It's been around forever.

[Au165]

I’ll give my ”football guy” take.

The reason they are running so much early is because teams are giving us two high looks. Essentially this means that the safeties are for the most part out of the run game and you should have an advantage in the box for blocking. Teams are doing this because it’s letting them take the deep game away and requires us to run well and be patient which we have have proven to be neither. This is the exact same thing the Chiefs experienced last year and struggled with early in the season.

The blocking issues are a combination of poor communication, for example the no attempt on Parsons where Collins blocked down instead of out appeared to be that he didn’t get the call. Bengals had moved Sample down on an “Ali” check which means he’d take the first double mug defender and punch them in the mouth allowing the others to fan outward. I don’t know how loud it was in there but there were multiple times you could see Joe talking to a lineman and pointing at his ears as to say “listen”.

The bigger issue is they know teams are giving them variations of cover 2 but haven’t done anything to attack cover two. Last week we went with a smash concept to open the game and it got picked, but the concept was right it was just a great play by Fitzpatrick. We went back to it only once by my count this week and it did work. Additionally they need to run more clear outs, the short middle is open and we see Chase have success with the slants but why we go away from it I have no clue. If they’d set Hurst inside and run a streak to carry the middle defender it would be even more open for running after the catch.

Bottom line there are issues all over the offense. They almost need to scrap the whole thing and start over but that’s a tough thing to do in season.

Side note: thought I posted this an hour ago and just noticed it not posted so apologies if most of this has been hashed out now.

[*Nately120*]

(09-19-2022, 11:44 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: These coaches...in Year 4 should know how to beat Tampa 2. It's been around forever.

Have we tried PASS 2 yet?





On a lighter note, I will say it was odd how much of our offensive success involved Burrow running up the gut and then taking a late hit to the head. That probably isn't too sustainable.

[The D.O.Z.]

When Joe threw out that first pitch for the lowly Cincinnati Reds earlier this year, they put their curse on him. Probably got a signed baseball that carries the curse inside of it, sitting in Joe’s locker, emanating like a rock of kryptonite.

[WeezyBengal]

(09-19-2022, 11:52 AM)Au165 Wrote: I’ll give my ”football guy” take.

The reason they are running so much early is because teams are giving us two high looks. Essentially this means that the safeties are for the most part out of the run game and you should have an advantage in the box for blocking. Teams are doing this because it’s letting them take the deep game away and requires us to run well and be patient which we have have proven to be neither. This is the exact same thing the Chiefs experienced last year and struggled with early in the season.

The blocking issues are a combination of poor communication, for example the no attempt on Parsons where Collins blocked down instead of out appeared to be that he didn’t get the call. Bengals had moved Sample down on an “Ali” check which means he’d take the first double mug defender and punch them in the mouth allowing the others to fan outward. I don’t know how loud it was in there but there were multiple times you could see Joe talking to a lineman and pointing at his ears as to say “listen”.

The bigger issue is they know teams are giving them variations of cover 2 but haven’t done anything to attack cover two. Last week we went with a smash concept to open the game and it got picked, but the concept was right it was just a great play by Fitzpatrick. We went back to it only once by my count this week and it did work. Additionally they need to run more clear outs, the short middle is open and we see Chase have success with the slants but why we go away from it I have no clue. If they’d set Hurst inside and run a streak to carry the middle defender it would be even more open for running after the catch.

Bottom line there are issues all over the offense. They almost need to scrap the whole thing and start over but that’s a tough thing to do in season.

Side note: thought I posted this an hour ago and just noticed it not posted so apologies if most of this has been hashed out now.

I think is pretty much spot on. 

To me, a lot of that comes down to ZT, play design, and his overall offense. It's a disaster right now. 

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-19-2022, 11:35 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: They ran 100 plays on Offense in Game 1. At some point, we gotta stop blaming not playing 20 preseason snaps.

The offensive woes are largely this team not knowing how to beat Cover 2. Take big plays away and they struggle.

This. No excuse to look worse a week later.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-19-2022, 11:52 AM)Au165 Wrote: I’ll give my ”football guy” take.

The reason they are running so much early is because teams are giving us two high looks. Essentially this means that the safeties are for the most part out of the run game and you should have an advantage in the box for blocking. Teams are doing this because it’s letting them take the deep game away and requires us to run well and be patient which we have have proven to be neither. This is the exact same thing the Chiefs experienced last year and struggled with early in the season.

The blocking issues are a combination of poor communication, for example the no attempt on Parsons where Collins blocked down instead of out appeared to be that he didn’t get the call. Bengals had moved Sample down on an “Ali” check which means he’d take the first double mug defender and punch them in the mouth allowing the others to fan outward. I don’t know how loud it was in there but there were multiple times you could see Joe talking to a lineman and pointing at his ears as to say “listen”.

The bigger issue is they know teams are giving them variations of cover 2 but haven’t done anything to attack cover two. Last week we went with a smash concept to open the game and it got picked, but the concept was right it was just a great play by Fitzpatrick. We went back to it only once by my count this week and it did work. Additionally they need to run more clear outs, the short middle is open and we see Chase have success with the slants but why we go away from it I have no clue. If they’d set Hurst inside and run a streak to carry the middle defender it would be even more open for running after the catch.

Bottom line there are issues all over the offense. They almost need to scrap the whole thing and start over but that’s a tough thing to do in season.

Side note: thought I posted this an hour ago and just noticed it not posted so apologies if most of this has been hashed out now.

The voice of reason......

[Soonerpeace]

(09-19-2022, 09:49 AM)PhilHos Wrote: We all know the offensive line is out of sync and that's due to the fact that they had no preseason time to gel. I would submit to you that in addition to the OL being out of sync with each other, they are also out of sync with the QB. Every QB has their way of pocket maneuvering in accordance to how the OL is blocking. With the new starters on the OL, they don't yet have an instinctual feel for how Burrow likes to move in the pocket. In addition, Joe is not yet accustomed to how the new OLmen are blocking their men. This is evident in how many times Burrow tries to escape the pocket only to run into a defender. Yesterday, was better as he was able to escape the pocket and pick up some positive yards.

Now, I'm no football guru, but it's my theory that Zac and Callahan are trying to "help" the OL by calling so many rushing plays on 1st and 2nd downs. If true, I think this is doing the opposite of helping. This is just making it take longer for the OL to get in sync with the QB. I don't know the specific stats, but it seems that our offense has played better in the 2nd half of both games and I think it's because we do more passing kinda forcing the OL and QB to get on the same page quicker.

Your thoughts (beyond the "Zac and/or Pollack sucks and/or needs fired")?

Why they are running on first down is because teams are playing a soft zone deep cover two. It’s what defenses are begging us to do. We have to be successful but the 19 play drive we scored on yesterday is exactly what teams want us to do. Until we can protect or run the ball we are going to struggle.

[KillerGoose]

(09-19-2022, 12:03 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Why they are running on first down is because teams are playing a soft zone deep cover two. It’s what defenses are begging us to do. We have to be successful but the 19 play drive we scored on yesterday is exactly what teams want us to do. Until we can protect or run the ball we are going to struggle.

I am no big advocate for running the ball, and I didn't have the expectations for Mixon that you specifically did, but I never would have imagined Cincinnati would be so bad at running the ball this season. They are awful. Mixon is running at three yards per carry. On pure rushing plays, excluding scrambles, Cincinnati as a whole is running the ball at 2.96 yards per carry. Since 1999, that is the 4th worst start for a Cincinnati team through the first two weeks. 

[Essex Johnson]

(09-19-2022, 09:49 AM)PhilHos Wrote: We all know the offensive line is out of sync and that's due to the fact that they had no preseason time to gel. I would submit to you that in addition to the OL being out of sync with each other, they are also out of sync with the QB. Every QB has their way of pocket maneuvering in accordance to how the OL is blocking. With the new starters on the OL, they don't yet have an instinctual feel for how Burrow likes to move in the pocket. In addition, Joe is not yet accustomed to how the new OLmen are blocking their men. This is evident in how many times Burrow tries to escape the pocket only to run into a defender. Yesterday, was better as he was able to escape the pocket and pick up some positive yards.

Now, I'm no football guru, but it's my theory that Zac and Callahan are trying to "help" the OL by calling so many rushing plays on 1st and 2nd downs. If true, I think this is doing the opposite of helping. This is just making it take longer for the OL to get in sync with the QB. I don't know the specific stats, but it seems that our offense has played better in the 2nd half of both games and I think it's because we do more passing kinda forcing the OL and QB to get on the same page quicker.

Your thoughts (beyond the "Zac and/or Pollack sucks and/or needs fired")?

Rephrase i understand what you are thinking but I disagree with the offensive line and preseason, these guys are not rookies plus some would have been so limited they would not played little.  Plus the type of schemes and players they see in preseason is nothing like regular season.  The play of the line is way beyond out of sync 2 full games in.

Burrow and the Oline have worked together since late spring in some manner and on a daily basis for the past 6 weeks.  (him being out probably did hurt some though I would agree on that)

As for play calling, Sunday on 1st down we attempted to pass 5 times vs. run 4 times ... We actually started the game on our 1st two series with passes...  We throw the ball 36 times if you count sacks 42 times vs 25 running plays not out of the ordinary especially falling behind 14 to 3 early. 

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

Mixon and Perine have 36 carries when Burrow is under center and 12 when in shotgun.
Mixon and Perine have 43 carries after a huddle and 5 when going no huddle.
Mixon and Perine have 34 carries on 1st down and Burrow has 27 pass attempts.
Mixon and Perine have 11 carries with 6 or less yards until a 1st down and Burrow has 33 pass attempts.
Perine has 2 carries despite playing 24% of the offensive snaps.

So when they run it'll be from under center 75% of the time, and almost always from a huddle. They run more often than pass on 1st down, if the distance is 6 or less yards to a first down they're passing 75% of the time, and if Perine is in (1/4th of the time) it's going to be a pass.

If you have multiple major 75%+ trends on your offense, you're making the job too easy for defenses.

[Clark W Griswold]

They really need to mix it up because this line is not good enough to line up on first downs and open holes for Mixon. They need to run more play action on first down to try and slow the defenders who seem to know what is coming. Also, like it has been said already they need to attack with shorter slant routes under the safeties. Two of Chases biggest plays vs Balt and KC last year were t long bombs - they were over the middle.

Like Nate said - try pass 2!

[*psychdoctor*]

I don't have the links right now, but those in the know with stats have stated that the majority of the picks go on Joey b. Also, the interior three positions both guards in the center are rated 8th and League. In terms of pass blocking according into two PFF, it's the corner tackles that are given the line trouble. That would be J Williams and Collins. Both Cincinnati Bengals tackles are rated 31st in the NFL according to PFF

I think the 4 pics the first game has created. Just enough doubt that Joey b. Does not have self-efficacy at the moment. The game is moving too fast for him.

[J24]

They need to throw more on first and Second down. Also they have played two excellent defenses in Pitt and Dallas.

[Joelist]

There are overlapping issues. Some are Burrow who for some weird reason is not displaying pocket awareness. Some on the linemen who are making lots of mental mistakes - they aren't getting physically beat it is mental things like missing the extra rusher and failing to pick stunts up. And a LOT is on the design of the offense as follows:

1) The playbook appears to have no cover 2 beaters DESPITE such pass concepts being decades old and proven effective. When we finally did a couple of quick slants to Chase I almost died of shock.

2) The offense is way too vanilla and way too easy for defenses to pickup the run/pass element. Sunday we passed exactly one time with Burrow under Center - every other play was a run. Likewise on Shotgun the lean was HEAVILY towards pass. Giving the play away like this REALLY makes the job of the line harder and of the defense easier. We need a pro style offense that both runs and passes out of the same base formations.

[higgy100]

(09-19-2022, 12:56 PM)J24 Wrote: They need to throw more on first and Second down. Also they have played two excellent defenses in Pitt and Dallas.

They need quick hitters/scrren out to WR's for 5-6 yard gains. If the DB/LB misses the T then that play goes for alot more. Steelers made a living on that play under Ben.Gotta get JB out more on roll-outs to buy time and shorten passing lanes.

There are alot of creative ways to get yards on 1st down that are very safe passes.