"Special" Teams

[jj22]

(09-20-2022, 02:33 PM)Au165 Wrote: I get you are going to die on this hill, but claiming something that occurs .5% of the time "proves" they still occur as some victory is kind of comical. Sure in the hyperbolic sense yea they occur just like onside kicks and Hail Mary's do. People running around complaining their teams aren't doing those would be met with as much skeptisim. 

The funny thing is the Hail Mary actually converts at 9.3%, so literally a play considered to be a prayer is exponentially more likely to occur than what you are complaining about. The onside kick is successful just 4.23% of the time and people are talking about how ridiculously hard it is to get and if a rule change needs to occur to make it more viable. 

Again...you are complaining about something that occurs league wide .5% of the time they are attempted. The Patriots had a 99.9% chance of losing in the SB to the Falcons with 2:03 left in the 3rd quarter and orchestrated one of the greatest comebacks in NFL history, you are literally complaining about something LESS likely than that happening.

I thanked you once for all the work, I didn't need more of it. 

Fact remains we haven't seen nearly enough from our Special teams units outside of McPherson. 

[Au165]

(09-20-2022, 03:10 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: It's not a primary concern, but I looked it up and there's some truth to this, more than I thought there would be actually (all regular season stats)....

-KO return TDs in both 2019 and 2020. Each year only had 7 KO TDs, so lately they're well above average there.
-No Punt return TD since 2012, though, and 101 Punt TDs have happened since 2012, so that's pretty bad.
-Last punt block was 2018, but there's only been 45 punt blocks since 2018. So it's not terribly out of norm at all.
-Last FG block was 2017, 67 FG blocks since 2017, so they're below average there.

...so their Punt Return TDs have been really lacking, their KO Return TDs have been great lately, their Punk Blocks have been about average-ish, and their FG block is lacking.

Admittedly these are just massed stats and don't take into account that bad special teams are bad and good special teams are good, but still... Other than punt return TDs there's nothing to really be massively worried about.

Net field position and other metrics are much more impactful than the splash stats. 

[*rfaulk34*]

(09-20-2022, 09:18 AM)jj22 Wrote: A fake punt on 4th and 5 to keep the ball and keep marching towards a TD in overtime when you have a backup long snapper in who has never snapped in game situations and already caused a missed a extra point would have been great coaching.  

Or stupid coaching since the gunners were covered 1 on 1 and there were 2 Pitt defenders a couple yards behind the LoS in case of a fake. 

Isn't it great when you can sit back and just make up "successful" scenarios after the fact?

[*rfaulk34*]

(09-20-2022, 09:54 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: Good special teams play is not about blocked punts, return TDs, or fake punts. Those are splash plays, and yes they are fantastic, but they are very rare. Good special teams play is consistent kick coverage, punt coverage, FG execution.

^This. 

Since when is solid and reliable bad?

Last 5 full seasons Football outsiders have the Bengals DVOA rank as 8th, 9th, 1st, 7th and 21st. PFF has them graded 2nd, 5th, 6th, 16th and 13th. Lineups has them ranked 7th, 7th, 2nd, 21st and 22nd. 

[jj22]

(09-20-2022, 04:21 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Isn't it great when you can sit back and just make up "successful" scenarios after the fact?

Sure as fans who don't get paid millions to coach these things ahead of time.

[*rfaulk34*]

(09-20-2022, 04:59 PM)jj22 Wrote: Sure as fans who don't get paid millions to coach these things ahead of time.

Which is exactly why they don't listen to fans who want to run a fake punt when Pitt is set up for a return and guarding against a fake. 

They run fakes when they see something on film that would allow them to try when the opportunity presents itself. If the opportunity doesn't present itself, they're not going to do it just because they haven't done it since X. 

[*Synric*]

Gimmick special teams plays are mostly desperate acts. True special teams is limiting KR, PR, good kicking, and getting 12 to 17 yards average back on Punt returns.

If you are depending on fake punts and kicks to win you need a better offense or defense.

[jj22]

Yall can focus on the gimmicks I mentioned (fake punts), but what about the blocked kicks and big returns.... All we get is fair catches, which I get and I appreciate the posters who highlighted the thinking is that's the safest. But let's focus on the gimmicks as if we've been too good for those in the last 7 years (outside of last year).

I personally don't consider "gimmicks" desperate plays, but I'm letting that narrative slide because it's a key point to some posters debate I guess. Was the Mixon HB pass in the SB a desperate play? Was years of Pittsburg killing us with "gimmick" plays desperate when they were headed to Superbowls and winning records?

Some of this is creativity, and creativity breads confidence and eliminates what everyone has been crying about the past two weeks predictability. ie here comes a good o'le fair catch.

[jj22]

(09-20-2022, 05:02 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Which is exactly why they don't listen to fans who want to run a fake punt when Pitt is set up for a return and guarding against a fake. 

Oh now Pitt was guarding against a fake..... Why? We haven't ran one in 8 years!  Pitt wasn't setting up for a return either. They were going to be backed up or the punt was going into the endzone. If anything they were setting up to block it again from the edge which would have been a perfect time for the fake (run).

For the record I trust Simmons running the fake punt which he used to do very successful. I think fake FG's are a little more tricky and a lot more difficult to pull of.

[impactplaya]

(09-20-2022, 09:12 AM)jj22 Wrote: When is the last fake or blocked punt we've had? Taking shots at me doesn't change or answer this. It highlights the problem that no one can answer and all you have is shots.. 

When you have a offense like the Bengals that
Has has trouble scoring  and having big plays 2 games in every idea should be exhausted regarding 
Find ways to advance the ball. 

I see no wrong in asking where is the thinking outside the box in regards to special teams.
I remember years ago under Marvin, Cedric Peerman
Took a direct snap in a punt formation and ran 40 yards. 
I would enjoy seeing another direct snap to the upback. It's the ultimate play on special teams 
To catch them napping.anything to flip the field 
And keep possessions. 
I saw a fake punt go for a big 1st down last week in
Another game 

[*rfaulk34*]

(09-20-2022, 05:27 PM)jj22 Wrote: Oh now Pitt was guarding against a fake..... Why? We haven't ran one in 8 years!  Pitt wasn't setting up for a return either. They were going to be backed up or the punt was going into the endzone. If anything they were setting up to block it again from the edge which would have been a perfect time for the fake (run).

For the record I trust Simmons running the fake punt which he used to do very successful. I think fake FG's are a little more tricky and a lot more difficult to pull of.

There was no 4th and 5 in OT with a backup snapper. 

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(09-20-2022, 09:48 AM)jj22 Wrote: He hasn't run a fake punt in 8 years (just for your clarification it does not turn into 4th and 15 as the punt protector takes the ball from pretty close to the snapper not the punter), so I doubt many would have seen it coming.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRJVieFvRZE

I never knew 2020 was 8 years ago...

[J24]

(09-20-2022, 09:14 AM)jj22 Wrote: Outside of McPherson our "Special" teams haven't been so special, and it's ok to highlight this.

McPherson is the most the important aspect of Special Teams. FYI Brandon Wilson has two KR for Touchdowns. One in 2019(@Ravens) and one in 2020(Giants)

[Roland]

When we look back on this thread in the future, I just want to say I was there.

[*SHRacerX*]

(09-19-2022, 11:31 PM)jj22 Wrote: I'm not calling for Simmons's head but where are our fake punts, punt/kick return TD's, blocked kicks? When is the last time we've had one? Is he overrated? His units have been solid (safe), but far from special.

Evans needs to get a shot. Not sure what he's done to get in the dog house.

All 3 phases need to contribute to maintain success. Special teams has gotten a pass for a couple years now. McPherson aside, we are going to need more explosion from the unit.

Kind of funny you mention that.  When Huber was punting from the Dallas 42 yard line, I told my dad that it would be a fake and I remembered them practicing it.  Huber was looking around as though he was surveying the defense, but maybe they didn't get the look they wanted.  

As far as more explosive, I think Taylor has been really solid and done a good job on PR.  KR are just not happening because everyone kicks it deep.  That will change with the weather.  

[Nicomo Cosca]

ST had a really good game last night. Jeff Gunter with the blocked kick, McPherson nailed a 57 yard FG with ease, Trent Taylor had a nice 23 yard punt return. and the 2nd play by Markus Bailey in this clip was huge.

.@bengals @mb_boiler21 made 2 solo tackles on KO Coverage last night. Great individual plays keeping the Fins backed up. The 2nd one was key b/c Mosteryt was looking at a gorge to slide through. #whodey #BaldysBreakdowns pic.twitter.com/vbnnsfDVAB

— Brian Baldinger (@BaldyNFL) September 30, 2022

[jj22]

They did. It was good to see. This was a "team" win.

[Nicomo Cosca]

Huber sucked last night.

[TecmoBengals]

(10-10-2022, 10:14 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Huber sucked last night.

I'd be interested in if there is deep analysis as to what extent, if any, Huber is hurting the team with field position. The eye test tells me he's sucking and screwing over the team with poor punting.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(10-10-2022, 10:14 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Huber sucked last night.

Trent Taylor also fair caught at least 2 punts last night when there was nobody closer than at least 7 yards to him.

Combined with that scary PAT and a kickoff out of bounds... it wasn't exactly an example of good special teams from pretty much the entire crew.