Dan Orlusky … shotgun vs under center… bengals run game

[Soonerpeace]

https://twitter.com/danorlovsky7/status/1577665506550718464?s=46&t=Qxmp-vm7jZ72ufqg-PQsmg

Talk about how Cincy has adapted this year

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

Good find.

Glad they are adapting and figuring shit out, but you'd really expect to not have the problem in the first place with a 4th year playcaller.

[*bengalfan74*]

Huh ? So the defensive guys say they have a much harder time defending against a QB under center ? And they play action does confuse them at times. So perhaps we do need to practice and work on our play action game ?

[*rfaulk34*]

(10-05-2022, 01:08 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Huh ? So the defensive guys say they have a much harder time defending against a QB under center ? And they play action does confuse them at times. So perhaps we do need to practice and work on our play action game ?

[Soonerpeace]

Joe hates it under center. And was listening to Dehner and Morrison. They’ve confirmed through Callahan that Mixon is tipping off run and pass plays.

[BFritz21]

How many times have I said all of those things?!

Play action? Safeties don't have to commit? Backers and entire defense doesn't have to commit? Defensive linemen rush different?

I've been preaching this all along!

Let's hope Zac and the entire offensive coaching staff is listening, but with how much it's going up, let's hope it will continue!

[BFritz21]

(10-05-2022, 01:18 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Joe hates it under center. And was listening to Dehner and Morrison. They’ve confirmed through Callahan that Mixon is tipping off run and pass plays.

But it's better for the offense and Joe and the offense will be better being under center more!

[WeezyBengal]

This has been a take since week 2. A ton of Bengals guys on Twitter pointed it out (Goodberry). They have definitely made changes to break the tendency.

[HarleyDog]

(10-05-2022, 03:29 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: How many times have I said all of those things?!



I've been preaching this all along!

[Housh]

(10-05-2022, 01:18 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Joe hates it under center. And was listening to Dehner and Morrison. They’ve confirmed through Callahan that Mixon is tipping off run and pass plays.

They figured out Mixon was doing it during the Dolphins game


On the Hurst easy TD Mixon looked like he was gonna get the ball cause his stance was low and then we passed it and destroyed the Dolphins

[RegularGuy22]

So hopefully they install the "fix" this week. Maybe that was the meeting Mixon had with the Oline and talked about. The TD to Hurst did look easy. Everybody going right and Hurst drifts left wide open.

[Soonerpeace]

(10-05-2022, 03:31 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: But it's better for the offense and Joe and the offense will be better being under center more!

Zac is the ultimate players coach. Maybe to a fault. The difference is I’m sure Joe realizes they need to to be successful.

[HarleyDog]

(10-05-2022, 01:18 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Joe hates it under center. And was listening to Dehner and Morrison. They’ve confirmed through Callahan that Mixon is tipping off run and pass plays.

Callahan heard it from Luther Van Dam. He seen that from a mile away.

[BFritz21]

(10-05-2022, 04:02 PM)HarleyDog Wrote:

It has been a while since I've seen that movie so it took a full day for it to click!



"I been saying it! I been saying it for ten damn years! Ain't I been saying it?!"

[KillerGoose]

This is an interesting watch. Statistically, everything about an offense runs better from the gun. Since 2010, QBs have been 3x as efficient from shotgun than under center by EPA. We're talking about a comparison that simply isn't even close. For RBs, the difference is even more noticeable with shotgun runs averaging nearly double what under center runs average, 5.42 vs. 2.87. 

Offenses are more productive from the shotgun than under center, this isn't an argument. Even from a points perspective, shotgun plays have averaged 0.22 points per play whereas under center has averaged 0.14, which is a 56% difference. This conversation reminds me of an old Carmelo vs. Lebron debate I saw from years ago. Despite Lebron being more productive and scoring more points, the argument was Carmelo was a better scoring threat than Lebron because he "had a deeper bag" I.E. had more moves in his skillset. Listening to this discussion, they talk about how many things are available to an offense in each scenario, but one scenario is just vastly more productive than the other. That extra availability doesn't really seem to help the offense in any measurable way, at least from a productivity standpoint. 

[Sled21]

(10-05-2022, 08:39 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: It has been a while since I've seen that movie so it took a full day for it to click!



"I been saying it! I been saying it for ten damn years! Ain't I been saying it?!"

That's the look of a man who has been probed......

[Garrus]

(10-05-2022, 11:39 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: This is an interesting watch. Statistically, everything about an offense runs better from the gun. Since 2010, QBs have been 3x as efficient from shotgun than under center by EPA. We're talking about a comparison that simply isn't even close. For RBs, the difference is even more noticeable with shotgun runs averaging nearly double what under center runs average, 5.42 vs. 2.87. 

Offenses are more productive from the shotgun than under center, this isn't an argument. Even from a points perspective, shotgun plays have averaged 0.22 points per play whereas under center has averaged 0.14, which is a 56% difference. This conversation reminds me of an old Carmelo vs. Lebron debate I saw from years ago. Despite Lebron being more productive and scoring more points, the argument was Carmelo was a better scoring threat than Lebron because he "had a deeper bag" I.E. had more moves in his skillset. Listening to this discussion, they talk about how many things are available to an offense in each scenario, but one scenario is just vastly more productive than the other. That extra availability doesn't really seem to help the offense in any measurable way, at least from a productivity standpoint. 

I would think the only benefit of being under center is it makes play-action work better, while with shotgun it seems like only if it is a true RPO does it work. I have no evidence to support that though.

[WeezyBengal]

(10-05-2022, 11:39 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: This is an interesting watch. Statistically, everything about an offense runs better from the gun. Since 2010, QBs have been 3x as efficient from shotgun than under center by EPA. We're talking about a comparison that simply isn't even close. For RBs, the difference is even more noticeable with shotgun runs averaging nearly double what under center runs average, 5.42 vs. 2.87. 

Offenses are more productive from the shotgun than under center, this isn't an argument. Even from a points perspective, shotgun plays have averaged 0.22 points per play whereas under center has averaged 0.14, which is a 56% difference. This conversation reminds me of an old Carmelo vs. Lebron debate I saw from years ago. Despite Lebron being more productive and scoring more points, the argument was Carmelo was a better scoring threat than Lebron because he "had a deeper bag" I.E. had more moves in his skillset. Listening to this discussion, they talk about how many things are available to an offense in each scenario, but one scenario is just vastly more productive than the other. That extra availability doesn't really seem to help the offense in any measurable way, at least from a productivity standpoint. 

This could be true, but to me this conversation in terms of the Bengals is talking more about their tendencies. That's kind of mutually exclusive from the shotgun vs. under center debate. The issue they are having is kind of a one off thing. 

I agree though, offenses can be more productive under shotgun (which you have shown) but when you start to show tendencies and defenses know what is coming based on formation...that's when you have a problem. 

[KillerGoose]

(10-06-2022, 09:53 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: This could be true, but to me this conversation in terms of the Bengals is talking more about their tendencies. That's kind of mutually exclusive from the shotgun vs. under center debate. The issue they are having is kind of a one off thing. 

I agree though, offenses can be more productive under shotgun (which you have shown) but when you start to show tendencies and defenses know what is coming based on formation...that's when you have a problem. 

That's fair. I was looking at their early conversation, where they were speaking about how much you have available to you under center and how everything looks the same etc. 

Cincinnati has shown tendencies for sure. Personally, I would be fine scrapping most UC plays and just going shotgun with a bunch of RPOs & play-actions mixed in. I am also not an NFL offensive coordinator, so I am sure there is something I am missing. 

[WeezyBengal]

(10-06-2022, 09:58 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: That's fair. I was looking at their early conversation, where they were speaking about how much you have available to you under center and how everything looks the same etc. 

Cincinnati has shown tendencies for sure. Personally, I would be fine scrapping most UC plays and just going shotgun with a bunch of RPOs & play-actions mixed in. I am also not an NFL offensive coordinator, so I am sure there is something I am missing. 

I'd be OK with that. There is also something that you can do more of in shotgun than under center and that's the use of misdirection. When you are under center you misdirection stuff is limited.