Burrow and play action

[Essex Johnson]

Interesting article that discusses how Joe is a bit one dimensional when he goes under center vs shot gun, he has to sell it better could lead to big plays.


Sources from cincy paper

of the changes the Bengals have made to help get the offense operating more efficiently is putting Burrow under center more.
"Cincinnati’s offense has increased the amount of play-action their offense is using and that requires a different style of play for Burrow that he’s learning on the fly"

[*rfaulk34*]

[*Synric*]

(10-12-2022, 10:15 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Interesting article that discusses how Joe is a bit one dimensional when he goes under center vs shot gun, he has to sell it better could lead to big plays.  


Sources from cincy paper

of the changes the Bengals have made to help get the offense operating more efficiently is putting Burrow under center more.
"Cincinnati’s offense has increased the amount of play-action their offense is using and that requires a different style of play for Burrow that he’s learning on the fly"

Hard to sell the fake when the RB is running to chip or to the flat away from the QB... and honestly Burrow is better when he can use his excellent vision. His field vision is one of his best traits and why they drafted him #1 overall.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(10-12-2022, 10:37 PM)Synric Wrote: Hard to sell the fake when the RB is running to chip or to the flat away from the QB... and honestly Burrow is better when he can use his excellent vision. His field vision is one of his best traits and why they drafted him #1 overall.

Exactly. The less Burrow has to turn his back to the defense the better.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-12-2022, 10:43 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Exactly. The less Burrow has to turn his back to the defense the better.

Yep .....but if they ever get the offensive line straightened out where he has time to do it, it absolutely should be a part of the offense. 

[*PhilHos*]

(10-12-2022, 10:37 PM)Synric Wrote: Hard to sell the fake when the RB is running to chip or to the flat away from the QB... and honestly Burrow is better when he can use his excellent vision. His field vision is one of his best traits and why they drafted him #1 overall.

(10-12-2022, 10:43 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Exactly. The less Burrow has to turn his back to the defense the better.

(10-13-2022, 10:36 AM)Wyche Wrote: Yep .....but if they ever get the offensive line straightened out where he has time to do it, it absolutely should be a part of the offense. 

What's the downside if we just run nothing but a shotgun offense? As long as we still run the ball, use playaction, etc, what would be the downfall of just being in shotgun 100% of the time? 

[KillerGoose]

(10-13-2022, 10:38 AM)PhilHos Wrote: What's the downside if we just run nothing but a shotgun offense? As long as we still run the ball, use playaction, etc, what would be the downfall of just being in shotgun 100% of the time? 

There's no real downside, or nothing major. Arizona and Philly are in shotgun over 75% of the time, which is tops in the league. You lose the ability to QB sneak, I guess. Cincinnati is in shotgun 57% of the time. I am all for bumping that up and introducing more RPO's to the offense. Spreading the defense out and letting the backs have less congested boxes as well. 

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-13-2022, 10:38 AM)PhilHos Wrote: What's the downside if we just run nothing but a shotgun offense? As long as we still run the ball, use playaction, etc, what would be the downfall of just being in shotgun 100% of the time? 

(10-13-2022, 10:50 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: There's no real downside, or nothing major. Arizona and Philly are in shotgun over 75% of the time, which is tops in the league. You lose the ability to QB sneak, I guess. Cincinnati is in shotgun 57% of the time. I am all for bumping that up and introducing more RPO's to the offense. Spreading the defense out and letting the backs have less congested boxes as well. 

What he said.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(10-13-2022, 10:50 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: There's no real downside, or nothing major. Arizona and Philly are in shotgun over 75% of the time, which is tops in the league. You lose the ability to QB sneak, I guess. Cincinnati is in shotgun 57% of the time. I am all for bumping that up and introducing more RPO's to the offense. Spreading the defense out and letting the backs have less congested boxes as well. 

What do those 2 teams have in common? Kyler Murray has a 819 rushing yard/11 rushing TD season at 6.2 yards per carry, Jalen Hurts has a 784 rushing yard/10 rushing TD season at 5.6 yards per carry. (And both got absolutely embarrassed in the playoffs.)

Also... Arizona is currently turning into a dumpster fire right now, so I don't know if I would want to be paired with them. Lol

[KillerGoose]

(10-13-2022, 12:00 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: What do those 2 teams have in common? Kyler Murray has a 819 rushing yard/11 rushing TD season at 6.2 yards per carry, Jalen Hurts has a 784 rushing yard/10 rushing TD season at 5.6 yards per carry. (And both got absolutely embarrassed in the playoffs.)

Also... Arizona is currently turning into a dumpster fire right now, so I don't know if I would want to be paired with them. Lol

I think that is probably the reason those teams are in shotgun more often, but you don't need that type of QB to be in the shotgun more often. Cincinnati is currently running shotgun sets more often than last year, at least. Several other teams are in the 60% range, like Buffalo, Kansas City, Washington, Indianapolis. 

I don't think Cincinnati or any other team will ever approach 100%, but bumping it up could be nice.

[higgy100]

(10-12-2022, 10:15 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Interesting article that discusses how Joe is a bit one dimensional when he goes under center vs shot gun, he has to sell it better could lead to big plays.  


Sources from cincy paper

of the changes the Bengals have made to help get the offense operating more efficiently is putting Burrow under center more.
"Cincinnati’s offense has increased the amount of play-action their offense is using and that requires a different style of play for Burrow that he’s learning on the fly"

I said preseason they would make not only far more use of PA but that they would be very successful because of an improved run game. Well, last game was the best they've run the ball thus far but it does really go to show that good PA requires better technique and a sell job by the QB. I never guessed, if true, that would have been an issue.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(10-13-2022, 12:05 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I think that is probably the reason those teams are in shotgun more often, but you don't need that type of QB to be in the shotgun more often. Cincinnati is currently running shotgun sets more often than last year, at least. Several other teams are in the 60% range, like Buffalo, Kansas City, Washington, Indianapolis. 

I don't think Cincinnati or any other team will ever approach 100%, but bumping it up could be nice.

Josh Allen: 763 rushing yard/6 rushing TD at 6.3 yards per carry season
Patrick Mahomes: 382 rushing yard/2 rushing TD at 5.8 yards per carry season

Mahomes has less yards, but we all know he could get more if he wanted them (hence 5.8 yards per carry and hasn't been under 5.0 the last 4 years). He's happy to threaten run and then throw it, like that LoS TD pass to Kelce just last week.

Washington and Indianapolis are the 26th and 32nd ranked scoring offenses and their QBs have been sacked 20 and 21 (most in NFL) times. You listed 4 highly mobile QBs and 2 of the worst offenses. Joe Burrow isn't a highly mobile QB, so that only leaves one of the two categories to fall under. Lol

[KillerGoose]

(10-13-2022, 12:14 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Josh Allen: 763 rushing yard/6 rushing TD at 6.3 yards per carry season
Patrick Mahomes: 382 rushing yard/2 rushing TD at 5.8 yards per carry season

Mahomes has less yards, but we all know he could get more if he wanted them (hence 5.8 yards per carry and hasn't been under 5.0 the last 4 years). He's happy to threaten run and then throw it, like that LoS TD pass to Kelce just last week.

Washington and Indianapolis are the 26th and 32nd ranked scoring offenses and their QBs have been sacked 20 and 21 (most in NFL) times. You listed 4 highly mobile QBs and 2 of the worst offenses. Joe Burrow isn't a highly mobile QB, so that only leaves one of the two categories to fall under. Lol

I see the trend. I just don't think you need a highly mobile QB. Green Bay is right at 60% as well. They haven't been that great, either. I haven't really looked into anything in this discussion beyond shotgun sets are more efficient and productive than under center sets. Looking at a few historical seasons, you're definitely right on the trend that teams with mobile QBs run shotgun more often. I personally don't think you need a mobile QB to run shotgun sets more often, but that is the league trend at the moment. Slightly increasing so far this season over last league wide, but still. 

[J24]

(10-13-2022, 12:26 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I see the trend. I just don't think you need a highly mobile QB. Green Bay is right at 60% as well. They haven't been that great, either. I haven't really looked into anything in this discussion beyond shotgun sets are more efficient and productive than under center sets. Looking at a few historical seasons, you're definitely right on the trend that teams with mobile QBs run shotgun more often. I personally don't think you need a mobile QB to run shotgun sets more often, but that is the league trend at the moment. Slightly increasing so far this season over last league wide, but still. 

What's the  league  average for shotgun snaps? I would be surprised if it was under 50%.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(10-13-2022, 12:26 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I see the trend. I just don't think you need a highly mobile QB. Green Bay is right at 60% as well. They haven't been that great, either. I haven't really looked into anything in this discussion beyond shotgun sets are more efficient and productive than under center sets. Looking at a few historical seasons, you're definitely right on the trend that teams with mobile QBs run shotgun more often. I personally don't think you need a mobile QB to run shotgun sets more often, but that is the league trend at the moment. Slightly increasing so far this season over last league wide, but still. 

I don't know if he still is considered one at his age, but Rodgers was much like Mahomes in that he could have a lot more rushing yards if he wanted to, but was more than happy just showing off his elite arm most of the time. He has also had a 269 rushing yards at 6.3 yards per carry season in the last 5 years and is a career 4.9 yards per carry rusher even with all the victory formation kneels you know he's done.

I don't know if it's a need, but it sure seems like the successful examples tend to be mobile QBs which I don't think Burrow was even before two different injured knees in two years. Burrow seems much more in the vein of Manning/Brady/Brees than Rodgers/Mahomes, and certainly not in the vein of Hurts/Allen/Murray/D Jones. 

Do you have the career shotgun/under center % for Manning/Brady/Brees? That'd be interesting to know.

[*Synric*]

(10-13-2022, 12:26 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I see the trend. I just don't think you need a highly mobile QB. Green Bay is right at 60% as well. They haven't been that great, either. I haven't really looked into anything in this discussion beyond shotgun sets are more efficient and productive than under center sets. Looking at a few historical seasons, you're definitely right on the trend that teams with mobile QBs run shotgun more often. I personally don't think you need a mobile QB to run shotgun sets more often, but that is the league trend at the moment. Slightly increasing so far this season over last league wide, but still. 

It's not a requirement Chargers for example are a team that runs alot of shotgun and doesnt run their QB alot. The last 4 or 5 years of Ben Roethlisbergers career they ran a ton of shotgun and he was by no means close to mobile.

Shotgun does allow the QB oppurtonities to run more often when the field is spread out and you can see the defense turn their backs. 

[KillerGoose]

(10-13-2022, 12:46 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I don't know if he still is considered one at his age, but Rodgers was much like Mahomes in that he could have a lot more rushing yards if he wanted to, but was more than happy just showing off his elite arm most of the time. He has also had a 269 rushing yards at 6.3 yards per carry season in the last 5 years and is a career 4.9 yards per carry rusher even with all the victory formation kneels you know he's done.

I don't know if it's a need, but it sure seems like the successful examples tend to be mobile QBs which I don't think Burrow was even before two different injured knees in two years. Burrow seems much more in the vein of Manning/Brady/Brees than Rodgers/Mahomes, and certainly not in the vein of Hurts/Allen/Murray/D Jones. 

Do you have the career shotgun/under center % for Manning/Brady/Brees? That'd be interesting to know.

Yep, see below...

Brady - 62% from shotgun
Manning - 62% from shotgun
Brees - 56% from shotgun

[Essex Johnson]

(10-12-2022, 10:37 PM)Synric Wrote: Hard to sell the fake when the RB is running to chip or to the flat away from the QB... and honestly Burrow is better when he can use his excellent vision. His field vision is one of his best traits and why they drafted him #1 overall.

well in football terms that is not really a play action, he does have play actions when the runner is not chipping etc.. but he sells it more, it will hold LBs better and give Wrs and him a better window for a play..  no doubt something he can improve on to help

[Essex Johnson]

(10-13-2022, 12:46 PM)J24 Wrote: What's the  league  average for shotgun snaps? I would be surprised if it was under 50%.

I would think higher but this is not about being in shotgun, it is going under center which we know has a high tendency of a run, but we and other teams still pass out of under center... with more teams playing cover 2, holding LBs and give a better window.. bottom line if Burrow is not going to improve the play action, just don;t do it at all. 

[KillerGoose]

(10-13-2022, 12:46 PM)J24 Wrote: What's the  league  average for shotgun snaps? I would be surprised if it was under 50%.

Just a hair under 54% with a standard deviation of 9%. So, there are notable variations in how each team utilizes it. A max of 76% (Baltimore) and a minimum of 37% (Tennessee).