Unpopular Opinion: Marge>the Castellini group.

[samhain]

History grants perspective both good and bad.

Marge Schott died as a reviled public figure. She was undeniably racist and ill-suited for generating good PR for a national brand. He style would age even more poorly given the current climate. She was also a notorious drunk, which sometimes amplified her repugnant opinions when she would blurt things out in a haze of bad judgement. She most definitely ranks as one of the most disliked owners in the history of major pro sports.

That makes this hard to argue, but Marge was 100x the owner that Bob Castellini is.

First and foremost, her teams, while not always great, were almost always competitive. She gave a shit about the team she put on the field and she gave a shit about the fans. She was cheap on the surface, but she generally had a legit GM to run the baseball side of things that would in some ways mitigate that. She won a title in 1990. She did not like losing, and she sold the team when it became obvious that she was no longer a viable steward of the team.

Bob and crew have made the Reds, once considered the unchallenged gem of Cincinnati sports, into a hopeless joke. Fans almost unanimously understand that the team will be bad for at least two more seasons, and the owners do not care. Yes, they have accumulated a wealth of prospects. The Pirates do the same, and they have sucked for a decade in an embarrassing fashion. No fan seems to trust Bob to make anything out of these young players except for more prospects and magic beans when the time to pay them comes along.

Fact is, the Reds are a glorified money-laundering operation for the ownership as things currently stand. They make money by slashing payroll, then they pocket it. MLB cut them a 118 million dollar revenue check, yet they slash and slash. That's what the team is now. it's here to make Bob money, nothing less, nothing more. Winning does not factor in. If they need to milk the cash machine, they just cut payroll, pocket saving, rinse, repeat.

Bob is not a better owner than Marge on his best day. He will cry poor and point to the realities of the market and collective bargaining, but he won't sell to unburden himself of these financial hazards. You know why? Because the team makes him a lot of money, and to him that matters a lot more than the city or the franchise.

The league should contract the clown franchises like Cincinnati, Oakland, and Pittsburgh. These half-stepping, grifting assbag owners are why the NFL destroys MLB in viewership. Nobody wants to watch teams with 300m payrolls wax team with 70m payrolls for 162 straight days. Unless you live in a major market or have an owner that has a heart and some testicles, baseball is a waste of a sport to watch.

[guyofthetiger]

Marge had a nice dog. She did a good job as owner. Bob said he wanted to make the Reds a championship team. Look where we are now.

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

What?

You have a problem with a FA approach of "Hey! Why not give us a chance to let you play everyday until we trade you into a pennant race?"

[The D.O.Z.]

Growing up, Reds baseball was my first sports love. My grandma and I listening in every night. I shit you not, we didn’t miss a game. And that 1990 season, she and I were probably the two happiest people on the planet. Even beyond that, even after her passing, I remained a fan. The Griffey years where we put no pitching staff around that potent offense. The early Votto / Bruce years were fun. But when we got no hit by the Phils in the playoffs I was starting to develop some apathy towards the organization. Fast forward to now and all these recent “rebuilds” and Phil C’s comments last year have me about as apathetic as ever. I’m at the point where I wouldnt be the least bit surprised if none of the prospects they’ve acquired lately pan out. That’s just our luck. This franchise is a violent train wreck you can’t help but peek through your fingers at!

[samhain]

(12-15-2022, 10:14 PM)The D.O.Z. Wrote: Growing up, Reds baseball was my first sports love. My grandma and I listening in every night. I shit you not, we didn’t miss a game. And that 1990 season, she and I were probably the two happiest people on the planet. Even beyond that, even after her passing, I remained a fan. The Griffey years where we put no pitching staff around that potent offense. The early Votto / Bruce years were fun. But when we got no hit by the Phils in the playoffs I was starting to develop some apathy towards the organization. Fast forward to now and all these recent “rebuilds” and Phil C’s comments last year have me about as apathetic as ever. I’m at the point where I wouldnt be the least bit surprised if none of the prospects they’ve acquired lately pan out. That’s just our luck. This franchise is a violent train wreck you can’t help but peek through your fingers at!

Oh, I think they have several prospects that will be very good.  I just don't think they'll be in Cincinnati longer than 6 years.  Maybe 4 if the team plans to get value while they have controllable years left on rookie deals.

[TecmoBengals]

I don't get the "unpopular opinion" subject line unless we're talking about personal character since Marge was a racist.

From a baseball ownership perspective, why would it be unpopular? She owned a team that won a World Series and she spent money to compete. She was a better owner from a baseball competitive framework.

Have I missed something about the Castellini group? Are they also bigots?

[samhain]

(12-16-2022, 10:04 AM)TecmoBengals Wrote: I don't get the "unpopular opinion" subject line unless we're talking about personal character since Marge was a racist.

From a baseball ownership perspective, why would it be unpopular? She owned a team that won a World Series and she spent money to compete. She was a better owner from a baseball competitive framework.

Have I missed something about the Castellini group? Are they also bigots?

Well, beyond the racism and public inebriation, Marge was known to be cheap when it came to her players.  She treated Davis poorly when he got hurt in the World Series, and her baseball acumen was mainly salvaged by the fact that she let her GMs (mostly) run the baseball operations.  She also ran Davey Johnson out of town for cohabitating with a woman out of wedlock when his team was kicking ass on the field.  

Let's not get it twisted.  Marge owned a team because she got it from her old man when he died.  She wasn't some baseball genius or even a decent person.  She just had the one very important attribute of knowing when to let others do stuff that she didn't know how to do.  

I don't quite understand your last question.  The only point about the Castellini group is that they are cheap and make shitty baseball decisions to compound the thrifty payroll.  I wouldn't say that the Castellinis are worse than Linder.  His time owning the team was horrific.  They're still pretty damn bad at what they do.

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

(12-16-2022, 07:46 PM)samhain Wrote: She also ran Davey Johnson out of town for cohabitating with a woman out of wedlock when his team was kicking ass on the field.  

That's the one that killed me. They replaced him with clueless Ray Knight. Davey Johnson was their last amazing manager. He knew baseball and he knew people. Some guys needed a pat on the back and some needed a kick in the ass and he wasn't above delivering either. Even though he never delivered a championship for Cincinnati, I put him even with Lou Piniella and both of them behind Sparky on the list of best Reds managers in my lifetime. Bryan Price might be the worst with Dumb Bell slightly above him.

[samhain]

(12-17-2022, 03:51 AM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: That's the one that killed me. They replaced him with clueless Ray Knight. Davey Johnson was their last amazing manager. He knew baseball and he knew people. Some guys needed a pat on the back and some needed a kick in the ass and he wasn't above delivering either. Even though he never delivered a championship for Cincinnati, I put him even with Lou Piniella and both of them behind Sparky on the list of best Reds managers in my lifetime. Bryan Price might be the worst with Dumb Bell slightly above him.

I liked Jack McKeon.  They has a nice season under him in the year that they got knocked out by the Mets in the 1 game playoff.  They had a duct-tape and zip tie pitching staff and a fun offensive group gelling at the right time.  It was one of the most fun Reds teams I can recall watching.  The rumor was that when Griffey got here, he and Larkin ran McKeon out of town.  As much as I loved the Griffey move when it happened, it was undeniably a bad thing for the team in the long term.  They sent a bunch of solid team guys with great chemistry to Seattle or a guy that was expected to be Willie Mays in his prime.  Well, that guy got hurt, gained weight, and proved to be less that awesome for the clubhouse.  The team basically had two HOF players whose HOF days were behind them and it sold off a promising group to get one of them.

Meanwhile, tTader Jack went on to win a WS title in Miami.  Ugh.

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

(12-17-2022, 10:17 AM)samhain Wrote: I liked Jack McKeon.  They has a nice season under him in the year that they got knocked out by the Mets in the 1 game playoff.  They had a duct-tape and zip tie pitching staff and a fun offensive group gelling at the right time.  It was one of the most fun Reds teams I can recall watching.  The rumor was that when Griffey got here, he and Larkin ran McKeon out of town.  As much as I loved the Griffey move when it happened, it was undeniably a bad thing for the team in the long term.  They sent a bunch of solid team guys with great chemistry to Seattle or a guy that was expected to be Willie Mays in his prime.  Well, that guy got hurt, gained weight, and proved to be less that awesome for the clubhouse.  The team basically had two HOF players whose HOF days were behind them and it sold off a promising group to get one of them.

Meanwhile, Trader Jack went on to win a WS title in Miami.  Ugh.

Yep, my bad. He was also in the class of 'awesome'. After he was sent packing, I was getting deeper into MLS and US Soccer and kind of blew off the Reds among other sports. Seriously. There is no off-season with soccer. European clubs play into May and start having pre-season friendlies in July. Well, June and July has most of the FIFA tournaments or qualifiers with all of the National Teams, which are like All-Star games that actually mean something.

So being swept away by Footy Mundo, I had completely forgotten that Bob Boone and Dave Miley managed after McKeon. I kind of remember Jerry Narron and have no idea who Pete Mackanin is. Then we got Dusty, who was great outside of handling a pitching staff. It took a phenomenal roster for him to finally win his WS title this year. Bottom of the barrel Price led us to a slight upgrade with Bell.

Looking at the entire list, a couple of Hall Of Fame players managed in Cincinnati.

Christy Mathewson went 164-176 from being the third manager of the 1916 season to being let go with 10 games to go in 1918, just before their 1919 WS win over the Black Sox.

Rogers Horsnby was also the third manager of the 1952 season before being relieved with eight games left in the following season after going 91-106 overall.

[Shake n Blake]

(12-17-2022, 10:17 AM)samhain Wrote: I liked Jack McKeon.  They has a nice season under him in the year that they got knocked out by the Mets in the 1 game playoff.  They had a duct-tape and zip tie pitching staff and a fun offensive group gelling at the right time.  It was one of the most fun Reds teams I can recall watching.  The rumor was that when Griffey got here, he and Larkin ran McKeon out of town.  As much as I loved the Griffey move when it happened, it was undeniably a bad thing for the team in the long term.  They sent a bunch of solid team guys with great chemistry to Seattle or a guy that was expected to be Willie Mays in his prime.  Well, that guy got hurt, gained weight, and proved to be less that awesome for the clubhouse.  The team basically had two HOF players whose HOF days were behind them and it sold off a promising group to get one of them.

Meanwhile, tTader Jack went on to win a WS title in Miami.  Ugh.

That 1999 team won 96 games, IIRC. It's wild that 96 wins was only good for a one game tie breaker.