Two Plays That Spell "Culture Change"

[Science Friction]

Two recent plays epitomize the change in culture from a losing mindset to a winning one .  These are the type of plays that I almost NEVER saw the Bengals make, or even attempt,  under the Lewis regime.

The first play was the 3rd and 11 pass to Higgins to finish off the Chiefs. Instead of running the ball and chewing up some more clock and then kicking the FG, Burrow and the Bengals went pass to effectively end the game right then and there.

The second play was today against the Bucs. Second down and 9 with 2:21 remaining. Instead of a run play to drain the clock down to two minutes, the Bengals decided to close the door right there, which they did with the 12 yd. TD pass to Mitch Wilcox.

In each case, the easy thing to do was drain some clock and play for an easy FG. But in each casr that would have left the door slightly ajar for the opposition.  In the case of the KC game it would given Mahomes a minute and a half to try and make up a six point deficit. That's a scary scenario for any defense to have to weather .  Granted, we probably still win today with a FG but Tom Brady has pulled off magic before with just a two score deficit late in a game. Stranger things have happened.  We didn't give him the chance to pull off a miracle.

My point is,  the Bengals did not give their opponents the chance to control their own destiny. They chose, instead,  to finish off the opposition with those plays when they had the opportunity. That's a winning mindset. That's a championship mindset.  It is the same mindset  we saw with Brady and Belichick with the Pats, or  Rodgers and Green Bay , as well as other championship teams. We never saw it with Marvin Lewis teams. It was always play it safe and hope the opponent doesn't make a play at the end to win the game. It was a play "not to lose" mentality, which, of course, almost always means you're gonna lose.

To me , these two plays pretty much epitomize a change from the old "we'll find a way to lose" mentality to a refreshing "we expect to win" mindset.

Agree or disagree?

[Roland]

It helps to have a stone cold killer at QB.

[BengalYankee]

(12-19-2022, 01:53 AM)Science Friction Wrote: Two recent plays epitomize the change in culture from a losing mindset to a winning one .  These are the type of plays that I almost NEVER saw the Bengals make, or even attempt,  under the Lewis regime.

The first play was the 3rd and 11 pass to Higgins to finish off the Chiefs. Instead of running the ball and chewing up some more clock and then kicking the FG, Burrow and the Bengals went pass to effectively end the game right then and there.

The second play was today against the Bucs. Second down and 9 with 2:21 remaining. Instead of a run play to drain the clock down to two minutes, the Bengals decided to close the door right there, which they did with the 12 yd. TD pass to Mitch Wilcox.

In each case, the easy thing to do was drain some clock and play for an easy FG. But in each casr that would have left the door slightly ajar for the opposition.  In the case of the KC game it would given Mahomes a minute and a half to try and make up a six point deficit. That's a scary scenario for any defense to have to weather .  Granted, we probably still win today with a FG but Tom Brady has pulled off magic before with just a two score deficit late in a game. Stranger things have happened.  We didn't give him the chance to pull off a miracle.

My point is,  the Bengals did not give their opponents the chance to control their own destiny. They chose, instead,  to finish off the opposition with those plays when they had the opportunity. That's a winning mindset. That's a championship mindset.  It is the same mindset  we saw with Brady and Belichick with the Pats, or  Rodgers and Green Bay , as well as other championship teams. We never saw it with Marvin Lewis teams. It was always play it safe and hope the opponent doesn't make a play at the end to win the game. It was a play "not to lose" mentality, which, of course, almost always means you're gonna lose.

To me , these two plays pretty much epitomize a change from the old "we'll find a way to lose" mentality to a refreshing "we expect to win" mindset.

Agree or disagree?

How long have you been a Bengal fan?

I know Marvin was our last Head Coach and you can use him as reference. But what about the list of lovely Head Coaches before Marvin?
Marvin took a perennial laughing stock "Bungles" team to respectability.
There is a list of "Bungle" Head Coaches, you can choose before you keep attacking the Bengals coach with one of the highest percentage wins/losses in our history.
   
Maybe you were not around during the 90's and early 00's. 

I also think Marvin would have a better record if he had Joe B. 

[Science Friction]

(12-19-2022, 03:06 AM)BengalYankee Wrote: How long have you been a Bengal fan?

I know Marvin was our last Head Coach and you can use him as reference. But what about the list of lovely Head Coaches before Marvin?
Marvin took a perennial laughing stock "Bungles" team to respectability.
There is a list of "Bungle" Head Coaches, you can choose before you keep attacking the Bengals coach with one of the highest percentage wins/losses in our history.
   
Maybe you were not around during the 90's and early 00's. 

I also think Marvin would have a better record if he had Joe B. 

I've been around close to fifty years as a Bengals' fan. That's plenty long enough to know Marvin Lewis had a vagina between his legs when it came to making courageous calls to end games. He was an ultra-conservative mis-manager of a football game. Saw him way too many times play "not to lose" instead of being bold and courageous. Not only that, but he tolerated way too much nonsense from players with felonious characters. Big culture change from Marvin to now. This team expects to win every game they play. Marvin's teams expected to find a way to lose games. Big difference. Much of what I said would apply to some other Bengal coaches in the past , as well.

[BengalYankee]

(12-19-2022, 04:31 AM)Science Friction Wrote: I've been around close to fifty years as a Bengals' fan. That's plenty long enough to know Marvin Lewis had a vagina between his legs when it came to making courageous calls to end games. He was an ultra-conservative mis-manager of a football game. Saw him way too many times play "not to lose" instead of being bold and courageous. Not only that, but he tolerated way too much nonsense from players with felonious characters. Big culture change from Marvin to now. This team expects to win every game they play. Marvin's teams expected to find a way to lose games. Big difference. Much of what I said would apply to some other Bengal coaches in the past , as well.

If you were around for 50 years and you forgot ...

Dave Shula    19 - 52   .268
Bruce Coslett  21 - 39  .350
Dick LeBeau   12 - 33  .267
Homer Rice     8 - 19   .296

Did these HC's above have long Schlongs between their legs??

Marvin Lewis  131 - 122 - 3  .518     0 - 7 playoffs
Paul Brown      55 - 56 -  1   .495     0 - 3 playoffs

[puddycat]

It's not just Zac. Analytics has something to do with it, but coaches have been slow to adapt game management strategies to just how quickly offenses can score with offense-friendly rules and good clock management. Playing wide-open is also safer for the receivers. Finally, I can't imagine an old-school QB making Burrow's "sacks aren't an important stat" observation. DLinemen and LBs would take that comment personally.

[Rubekahn29]

(12-19-2022, 03:06 AM)BengalYankee Wrote: How long have you been a Bengal fan?

I know Marvin was our last Head Coach and you can use him as reference. But what about the list of lovely Head Coaches before Marvin?
Marvin took a perennial laughing stock "Bungles" team to respectability.
There is a list of "Bungle" Head Coaches, you can choose before you keep attacking the Bengals coach with one of the highest percentage wins/losses in our history.
   
Maybe you were not around during the 90's and early 00's. 

I also think Marvin would have a better record if he had Joe B. 

Probably because it’s not worth comparing the other coaches prior to Marvin, as there is no contest at this point.

I do see the difference in decision making, but honestly, that likely more having Burrow at QB than who’s at head coach. If Zach had Andy in those situations, I’m not sure he’d put the ball in his hands like he does Burrow.

[basballguy]

I think it’s a reach to call it a “culture change.”

To me it’s just two different coaching/play calling tendencies.

Though it’s not really fair to ML, he didn’t have Burrow to trust to convert a 3rd and 12 on those cases

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-19-2022, 07:49 AM)basballguy Wrote: I think it’s a reach to call it a “culture change.”

To me it’s just two different coaching/play calling tendencies.  

Though it’s not really fair to ML, he didn’t have Burrow to trust to convert a 3rd and 12 on those cases

Marvin was a little more aggressive early in his tenure. Then he became way too conservative. 

[Speedy Thomas]

We know that #9 is a steely-eyed, cold-blooded assassin.

Could it be that our baby faced, mild mannered head coach is also a step on their throat guy?

[Sled21]

(12-19-2022, 03:06 AM)BengalYankee Wrote: How long have you been a Bengal fan?

I know Marvin was our last Head Coach and you can use him as reference. But what about the list of lovely Head Coaches before Marvin?
Marvin took a perennial laughing stock "Bungles" team to respectability.
There is a list of "Bungle" Head Coaches, you can choose before you keep attacking the Bengals coach with one of the highest percentage wins/losses in our history.
   
Maybe you were not around during the 90's and early 00's. 

I also think Marvin would have a better record if he had Joe B. 

This is BS I keep hearing Marvin apologists use. Marvin had Carson Palmer when he was one of the best young QB's in the league and did nothing with him,

[Ell Prez]

(12-19-2022, 07:49 AM)basballguy Wrote: I think it’s a reach to call it a “culture change.”

To me it’s just two different coaching/play calling tendencies.

Though it’s not really fair to ML, he didn’t have Burrow to trust to convert a 3rd and 12 on those cases

He had Carson Palmer. He was a damn good player for the bengals and the cardinals. People tend to forget how good Palmer was when he was in Cincinnati.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-19-2022, 10:20 AM)Speedy Thomas Wrote: We know that #9 is a steely-eyed, cold-blooded assassin.

Could it be that our baby faced, mild mannered head coach is also a step on their throat guy?

I think so....and I think he's able to have great understanding of his QB because he played the position. Played it well in college at that.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-19-2022, 10:40 AM)Ell Prez Wrote: He had Carson Palmer. He was a damn good player for the bengals and the cardinals. People tend to forget how good Palmer was when he was in Cincinnati.

He was decent in Oakland, but had no supporting cast.

[Daddy-O]

(12-19-2022, 01:53 AM)Science Friction Wrote: Two recent plays epitomize the change in culture from a losing mindset to a winning one .  These are the type of plays that I almost NEVER saw the Bengals make, or even attempt,  under the Lewis regime.

The first play was the 3rd and 11 pass to Higgins to finish off the Chiefs. Instead of running the ball and chewing up some more clock and then kicking the FG, Burrow and the Bengals went pass to effectively end the game right then and there.

The second play was today against the Bucs. Second down and 9 with 2:21 remaining. Instead of a run play to drain the clock down to two minutes, the Bengals decided to close the door right there, which they did with the 12 yd. TD pass to Mitch Wilcox.

In each case, the easy thing to do was drain some clock and play for an easy FG. But in each casr that would have left the door slightly ajar for the opposition.  In the case of the KC game it would given Mahomes a minute and a half to try and make up a six point deficit. That's a scary scenario for any defense to have to weather .  Granted, we probably still win today with a FG but Tom Brady has pulled off magic before with just a two score deficit late in a game. Stranger things have happened.  We didn't give him the chance to pull off a miracle.

My point is,  the Bengals did not give their opponents the chance to control their own destiny. They chose, instead,  to finish off the opposition with those plays when they had the opportunity. That's a winning mindset. That's a championship mindset.  It is the same mindset  we saw with Brady and Belichick with the Pats, or  Rodgers and Green Bay , as well as other championship teams. We never saw it with Marvin Lewis teams. It was always play it safe and hope the opponent doesn't make a play at the end to win the game. It was a play "not to lose" mentality, which, of course, almost always means you're gonna lose.

To me , these two plays pretty much epitomize a change from the old "we'll find a way to lose" mentality to a refreshing "we expect to win" mindset.

Agree or disagree?

Definitely agree.  It takes guts to do that because if it doesn't work the second guessing is loud and clear.  

Oh, and it doesn't hurt to have JB9 behind center who wants to and thrives in those situations.

[*PhilHos*]

(12-19-2022, 10:31 AM)Sled21 Wrote: This is BS I keep hearing Marvin apologists use. Marvin had Carson Palmer when he was one of the best young QB's in the league and did nothing with him,

Yep. Any time the Bengals had a 2 score lead or more, Marvin went run happy. That was with Palmer as well as Dalton.

[leonardfan40]

It’s not just about those two plays though. Look at those entire DRIVES. I’ve never seen a Bengals team, or ANY team for that matter, have so many of these dominating game sealing drives in one season.

Both drives you mentioned (really we had 2 vs KC, one to take the lead and one to ice it) we had one against Atlanta, one against Tennessee and another vs Pittsburgh.

The “Big boy” or “F you” drives where the offense just comes out and says “we are better than you, you can not stop us and you will not win this game”. When these drives start, the game is still in question. After a few plays, everyone watching realizes the game is over even if there is still 7 minutes left. One team is in complete control and the other team is nothing but a helpless bystander.

I love those drives. We used to only see them when they were happening against us, but now we get to enjoy completely demoralizing the enemy at the end of a hard fought game because this team will not be denied.

[Soonerpeace]

(12-19-2022, 02:49 AM)Roland Wrote: It helps to have a stone cold killer at QB.

Couldn’t agree more. I mean look how much better KC and Andy Reid are with Mahomes vs Alex Smith. Look how Bill Belicheck is with Mac Jones vs Brady. Look what Matt Stafford did for McVay. Look what Aikman did for Jimmy Johnson vs Steve Walsh. Look what Justin Fields did for Ryan Day. Trevor Lawrence or Deshawn Watson for Dabo. How about John Harbaugh w/o Lamar?

[Science Friction]

(12-19-2022, 11:10 AM)leonardfan40 Wrote: It’s not just about those two plays though. Look at those entire DRIVES. I’ve never seen a Bengals team, or ANY team for that matter, have so many of these dominating game sealing drives in one season.

Both drives you mentioned (really we had 2 vs KC, one to take the lead and one to ice it) we had one against Atlanta, one against Tennessee and another vs Pittsburgh.

The “Big boy” or “F you” drives where the offense just comes out and says “we are better than you, you can not stop us and you will not win this game”. When these drives start, the game is still in question. After a few plays, everyone watching realizes the game is over even if there is still 7 minutes left. One team is in complete control and the other team is nothing but a helpless bystander.

I love those drives. We used to only see them when they were happening against us, but now we get to enjoy completely demoralizing the enemy at the end of a hard fought game because this team will not be denied.

Those two plays were the signatures that evidenced the new attitude here in the Queen City but, yes, you are right, the game-sealing long drives almost never happened for us in the past.  The fourth quarter drive yesterday started with about nine and a half minutes left and Joe threw the pass to Wilcox with around 2:20 remaining. That's over SEVEN freaking minutes!!!  That's a "my schlong is bigger than your schlong" opponent-demoralizing drive.

[Interceptor]

(12-19-2022, 07:49 AM)basballguy Wrote: I think it’s a reach to call it a “culture change.”

To me it’s just two different coaching/play calling tendencies.  

Though it’s not really fair to ML, he didn’t have Burrow to trust to convert a 3rd and 12 on those cases

This team used to be the AFCN/Central punching bag. Now that it grew fangs and claws and is swole like the Hulk, everyone who bullied us started complaining. Complaining to the refs. Complaining about the refs. Still playing those shit mind-games and taking cheap shots. (Yeah, I'm talking to you Steelers. And Minkah) But all that seems to not matter with THIS team. They don't bother with the petty shit. They don't listen to trash talk. They fight for extra yards. They go for it when they smell blood. This team is focused more than I've ever seen. I never got this "killer vibe" with ML - especially when the team falls behind. And ML did absolutely no halftime adjustments.

Yesterday was a weird feeling. The offense did nothing and the defense was not much better. I bought into the Kool-Aid. No panic or stress. I had a feeling someone was going to open up like a raging flood but just didn't know who. I got texts from my friends poking me about Brady and the first half. I just texted back "We're a 2nd half team" and left it at that. And then everyone saw what happened.