The elephant in the room, again, Oline

[casear2727]

(02-03-2023, 02:01 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: Carmen struggled as a right guard. Not a tackle.

There’s a lot of time to sort this stuff out, but Jonah is a technician, while Carman is a mauler, so I figure Jonah can transition to right tackle easier than Carmen can. Jonah shouldn’t have a problem with it. It’s better than being a guard or a back up when you’re on your final year

Carmen made the comment himself a couple times regarding the right side and his grades were much higher on the left.  I can only imagine the issues would be magnified out at at tackle.

I dont disagree that Jonah would probably be better than Carmen on the right but he is getting 12M and we know he will start at LT.  I will not get off my soapbox that RT is an emergency need until I read that LC is fully healthy.

If we dont sign Bell, safety becomes the next emergency spot.

[Frank Booth]

(02-03-2023, 02:03 PM)Joelist Wrote: The team is going to wait on more definitive word on Collins and also seeing some sign Jonah will regain his ability to anchor. Me, I'd start by getting rid of Adeniji (cannot anchor) and if Jonah is not going to be able to anchor again then once his option year is done let him go too. Collins I kinda think is going away via injury settlement.

The problem is Free Agency is thin at OL and the draft this year is shy on plug and play Tackles, the only ones I know of are also all but certain to be gone when we pick. As such, it may be necessary to swing a trade to address this issue.

If the draft is short on plug and play tackles, then that’s even more reason to grab a guard to compete with Volson.

We know Jonah hovers around average, Carmen at worst is how Collins played this year, so it’s just so apparent they should grab best guard available

[Frank Booth]

(02-03-2023, 02:05 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Carmen made the comment himself a couple times regarding the right side and his grades were much higher on the left.  I can only imagine the issues would be magnified out at at tackle.

I dont disagree that Jonah would probably be better than Carmen on the right but he is getting 12M and we know he will start at LT.  I will not get off my soapbox that RT is an emergency need until I read that LC is fully healthy.

If we dont sign Bell, safety becomes the next emergency spot.

Carmen couldn’t beat Volson at LG so it’s 100% a guard issue. He’s not able to get low enough. Playin tackle is his strength. And btw, even when Collins was healthy, he wasn’t good. Carmen at RT should be fine. Jonah at RT would be better

[casear2727]

(02-03-2023, 02:09 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: Carmen couldn’t beat Volson at LG so it’s 100% a guard issue. He’s not able to get low enough. Playin tackle is his strength. And btw, even when Collins was healthy, he wasn’t good. Carmen at RT should be fine. Jonah at RT would be better

Carmen was passed over at guard twice, he was passed over at right tackle.  I'll take the top RT in the draft over Carmen moving back to the right side.

[Frank Booth]

(02-03-2023, 02:11 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Carmen was passed over at guard twice, he was passed over at right tackle.  I'll take the top RT in the draft over Carmen moving back to the right side.

Collins was gifted the RT job, he didn’t earn it. It was never a competition. Carmen was fighting for LG during training camp and preseason.

I’m telling you, with Carmen, it’s a guard issue, not a tackle issue.

[casear2727]

(02-03-2023, 02:14 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: Collins was gifted the RT job, he didn’t earn it. It was never a competition. Carmen was fighting for LG during training camp and preseason.

I’m telling you, with Carmen, it’s a guard issue, not a tackle issue.

Carmen himself said he didnt do well on the right side.  So Im probably going to go with what the kid says.  LC was given RT rightfully, we have no one else.  But I doubt he is back before half the season is over and would trust the #1 RT in the draft over Carmen or Adeniji.

[Frank Booth]

(02-03-2023, 02:18 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Carmen himself said he didnt do well on the right side.  So Im probably going to go with what the kid says.  LC was given RT rightfully, we have no one else.  But I doubt he is back before half the season is over and would trust the #1 RT in the draft over Carmen or Adeniji.

Great so give the RT job to Jonah

[casear2727]

(02-03-2023, 02:21 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: Great so give the RT job to Jonah

Or draft a guy that can play there the next 10 years and have it be a spot we are not concerned with for a long while?  Or have this draft pick play behind Jonah on the right for one season, whatever, but draft a stud.

Reality as we know it today says Jonah is starting at LT.

[*bfine32*]

(02-03-2023, 11:20 AM)casear2727 Wrote: It appears that you are suggesting he is injury prone, but that doesnt make any sense if a player is thrown into the back of his legs while blocking.  That is like saying someone is a bad driver because they were involved in 2 car wrecks in which the other drivers ran red lights or something to that effect.

Nope, I'm just saying he finished the last 2 years with ankle injuries. 

It's like someone suffered injury because ay at fault driver crashed into them. It doesn't make the injury any less or possible long-term effects.  it's not your "fault' but you are injured.

[casear2727]

(02-03-2023, 02:33 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Nope, I'm just saying he finished the last 2 years with ankle injuries. 

It's like someone suffered injury because ay at fault driver crashed into them. It doesn't make the injury any less or possible long-term effects.  it's not your "fault' but you are injured.

So what is the point? Im totally missing something?  The guy has bad luck and we should be concerned?

We definitely need IOL depth badly regardless.

[Science Friction]

(02-02-2023, 08:28 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I think there's no way we can afford to not fix the Oline.

Cut Joe Mixon and free up some money and get a free agent in here.

Agree. If we don't fix it, next season will end "one play away" again.

[*bfine32*]

(02-03-2023, 02:35 PM)casear2727 Wrote: So what is the point? Im totally missing something?  The guy has bad luck and we should be concerned?

We definitely need IOL depth badly regardless.

The point is:

Folks are saying:

"We should worry about Jonah because he's coming off injury."

"We should worry about Collins because he's coming off injury."

"Cappa is the MAN" Even though he's finished the last 2 years injured.

IMO we have the depth, we need to starters.

[casear2727]

(02-03-2023, 02:39 PM)bfine32 Wrote: The point is:

Folks are saying:

"We should worry about Jonah because he's coming off injury."

"We should worry about Collins because he's coming off injury."

"Cappa is the MAN" Even though he's finished the last 2 years injured.

IMO we have the depth, we need to starters.

Cappa is a high quality starter for us, hell he is the #1 lineman on the team.  We have 4 other spots to be concerned with before RG dont you think? 
I see RT as an emergency.

[*rfaulk34*]

(02-03-2023, 12:52 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Sure, but you don't get an agent chasing absolute top dollar and raising the top of the market if you don't want him. You don't pay a guy 3% of your contract if you don't have to or he's not earning it. That's $3m+ you're just giving away if you aren't even trying to make a tough extension negotiation.

Even if hypothetically Tee took an unrealistically enormous sweetheart deal, that means he's only making what, $20m/yr rather than $25m/yr? That's still going to be an unprecedented amount to go to a QB and 2 WRs. 

Let me put it this way... when Burrow and Chase both get extensions, you're going to have 2 of the top-20 paid players in the NFL on the same team. One of those 2 will likely be top-2. You're going to have to save money on other offensive skill positions with rookie and lower contract guys. It's already going to be a decent challenge to create a complete team even without adding a 2nd WR who will likely be top-30 paid ($25m/yr). 

It's either/or. Either you pay Burrow, Chase and Tee and don't spend as much to protect Burrow, or you pay Burrow, Chase and fork over some money for the Oline. 

You can do either one but you can't do both. 

[*rfaulk34*]

(02-03-2023, 01:08 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: We also beat the Chiefs in 2021 with Quentin Spain, Hakeem Adeniji, and Trey Hopkins. Doesn't mean I thought they were a good enough trio to beat any team in the NFL. Two of the three were out of the NFL in 2022 and the third is Adeniji.

Karras and Cappa are pretty decent, but they're not great. Volson is bad.

True. When they've beaten them, they kept Burrow clean. You can keep Burrow clean sometimes with this line but it's been proven they can't keep him clean, consecutive games during the playoffs. 

It's clear as day. 

[*bfine32*]

(02-03-2023, 02:44 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Cappa is a high quality starter for us, hell he is the #1 lineman on the team.  We have 4 other spots to be concerned with before RG dont you think? 
I see RT as an emergency.

I agree. 

[*rfaulk34*]

(02-03-2023, 01:53 PM)casear2727 Wrote: I dont see any way they move Karras, even if it is a good idea, they seem to love him being the QB/Captain of the oline.

Yep. Don't fix what ain't broken. Karras at center, Cappa at RG and let Jonah and Carman fight it out for LT, the loser is the backup (which takes care of depth for that spot). 

[Frank Booth]

(02-03-2023, 03:05 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: It's either/or. Either you pay Burrow, Chase and Tee and don't spend as much to protect Burrow, or you pay Burrow, Chase and fork over some money for the Oline. 

You can do either one but you can't do both. 

I made my case multiple times, so I’ll just say it one more time

Bengals need to take the chiefs approach of building around Mahomes.

Keep your golden goose(Kelce/Chase), invest seriously in offensive line, and bring in good secondary receivers/tight ends who want to play with Burrow for a year or 2 for low money.

I like Higgins, but the chiefs really had no issue replacing Tyreek with other cheaper options. Helping the trenches for real helps Burrow and the running game, which the bengals desperately need.

If they pay Higgins, it’s gonna really hamstring the rest of the salary cap. Burrow and Chase are obvious must pays, I don’t feel that way about Tee. Chiefs just proved you can replace Tyreek. Juju put up 900 yards, Kelce was Kelce, MVS filled the deep threat role.

[*rfaulk34*]

(02-03-2023, 04:06 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: I made my case multiple times, so I’ll just say it one more time

Bengals need to take the chiefs approach of building around Mahomes.

Keep your golden goose(Kelce/Chase), invest seriously in offensive line, and bring in good secondary receivers/tight ends who want to play with Burrow for a year or 2 for low money.

I like Higgins, but the chiefs really had no issue replacing Tyreek with other cheaper options. Helping the trenches for real helps Burrow and the running game, which the bengals desperately need.

If they pay Higgins, it’s gonna really hamstring the rest of the salary cap. Burrow and Chase are obvious must pays, I don’t feel that way about Tee. Chiefs just proved you can replace Tyreek. Juju put up 900 yards, Kelce was Kelce, MVS filled the deep threat role.

I agree. I'd hate to see Tee leave, but if it's at the expense of Oline, i can't see keeping him. 

The smart move is to pay Burrow and Chase, re-sign Boyd, draft Tee's replacement and spend money on the line. 

[casear2727]

(02-03-2023, 03:05 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: It's either/or. Either you pay Burrow, Chase and Tee and don't spend as much to protect Burrow, or you pay Burrow, Chase and fork over some money for the Oline. 

You can do either one but you can't do both. 

(02-03-2023, 04:06 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: I made my case multiple times, so I’ll just say it one more time

Bengals need to take the chiefs approach of building around Mahomes.

Keep your golden goose(Kelce/Chase), invest seriously in offensive line, and bring in good secondary receivers/tight ends who want to play with Burrow for a year or 2 for low money.

I like Higgins, but the chiefs really had no issue replacing Tyreek with other cheaper options. Helping the trenches for real helps Burrow and the running game, which the bengals desperately need.

If they pay Higgins, it’s gonna really hamstring the rest of the salary cap. Burrow and Chase are obvious must pays, I don’t feel that way about Tee. Chiefs just proved you can replace Tyreek. Juju put up 900 yards, Kelce was Kelce, MVS filled the deep threat role.

You both definitely make a good argument.

Disagreeing with this assessment would seem to assume that Burrow is much less of a QB than Mahomes or that Tee is more valuable than Hill, neither of which is the case.

Keeping Tee and Chase can be done, but what is the sacrifice?  Oline or defense?  Both?