Carson says Burrow is the best QB in the league

[Soonerpeace]

(02-05-2023, 07:15 PM)leonardfan40 Wrote: Yeah, and Mahomes was drafted by a division winning roster. Burrow was drafted by the team with the worst record. Not apples to oranges. Mahomes has been in the league longer, but certainly has a resume that is hard to argue with. We can have the argument until we are blue in the face, but only time will tell.

I’d rather have Burrow, but both are great. 1-2 in my book. I’d give Mahomes the edge until Burrow builds his resume a little more. 2 years from now it’ll be more clear, but this argument could last over a decade.

As good as the Bengal organization has done lately in the draft and FA they’ve sucked for a long time evaluating and developing the OL. They need to hire somebody that knows it.

[*michaelsean*]

I just want them to win a Super Bowl, and Joe gives them a great chance. The rest is noise.

[BengalYankee]

(02-05-2023, 06:50 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Mahomes has had this oline for 2 years, yet hosted 5 AFC title games.

Pat entered a better situation with a more talented team but he has earned that #1 spot.

Maybe one day we will see Joe with a great oline.

Yeah, what team will he be playing for then? 

[Soonerpeace]

(02-05-2023, 07:48 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: That's my point right there.

You say Mahomes struggled, but he went 14-2 in a season where he throws 38 TD/6 INT, was 2nd Team All-Pro, and went to the Super Bowl.

Mahomes is so good we've just kind of normalized him hosting the AFC Championship, going to the Super Bowl, and being great.

We won 10 straight and Joe overcome poor OL play until KC. Mahomes did fine until Tampa in the SB??

[Destro]

We saw what happened to Mahomes when his O-line was garbage in the Super Bowl. Joe Burrow with a fairly good O-line and it is surgical.

Give the man a pocket and he with put Super Bowl rings in his!

[Rubekahn29]

(02-05-2023, 07:48 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: That's my point right there.

You say Mahomes struggled, but he went 14-2 in a season where he throws 38 TD/6 INT, was 2nd Team All-Pro, and went to the Super Bowl.

Mahomes is so good we've just kind of normalized him hosting the AFC Championship, going to the Super Bowl, and being great.

Mahomes has never played behind a line as bad as ours last year and the ones we trotted out there in the Divisional and AFCCG this year.

[guyofthetiger]

Burrow is a great QB when given time to operate. He zips the ball in there with accuracy. I just don't want to compare him to another QB because each has their own strengths and weaknesses.

[CJD]

I appreciate the hype but I just don't get how people can rank Burrow higher than Mahomes at this point. I think they only do it to make headlines.

There is no shame in being the 2nd best QB in the NFL.

Part of me wonders if Carson is saying this so that, if we fail to win a Super Bowl during Burrow's career, he can say "See? They have the best QB in the NFL and still can't win a Super Bowl. This is the problem with the Bengals' organization."

[tms]

Thanks for posting. So much cool stuff there.

Carson picks Joey in the context of his perfect offense today:

OC = K. Shanahan
QB = Burrow (prefers his consistency and toughness... but concedes that a lot of others might pick Mahomes)
X = Jefferson
Z = Chase
Y = Kittle (loves Kelce as a receiver, but sees Kittle as a more complete, clutch and true TE... also calls him "Kittles" lol)
RB = Cook (perfect fit for Shanahan's offense)

Carson's Shanahan comment was really insightful. He thinks Kyle's the ideal OC not just because he can create success for his quarterbacks mentally and physically (as he did for Purdy), but also because he knows how to train separation into his receivers. I'd never really heard that before. How he can almost scheme spacing out of guys who aren't naturally gifted freaks like Chad, Allen, Chase, etc.

I thought it was so cool to hear them both admiring Burrow's precision, shaking their heads in disbelief. Jordan: "He had three of the most beautiful incompletions I've ever seen-" Carson: "I know!" Jordan: "He's the best back shoulder passer in the league-" Carson: "But throws a beautiful deep ball too."

Carson elaborated on the value of a high completion % beyond the obvious, how important it is especially at the start of the game and how it discourages the defense- which again reinforces how lucky we are to have literally the most accurate passer in league history. Jordan went so far as to say Burrow's second year was like "Rodgers in his prime." Carson saw him as more similar to Brady, particularly when it came to not getting distracted despite losing three of his starting OL heading into Arrowhead. "I would have... everyone else I know would have... I don't think that thought even went through his head! He's so mentally strong." Carson has never lacked for confidence, but sounds like he truly reveres Joe Burrow. That's awesome.

Anyway, thanks again for posting. Love hearing those two talk football.

[Fullrock]

But wait Carson, I thought the Bengals would ruin Joe? I thought his career didn’t have a chance in Cincinnati? Clown.

[KillerGoose]

(02-06-2023, 11:08 AM)Fullrock Wrote: But wait Carson, I thought the Bengals would ruin Joe? I thought his career didn’t have a chance in Cincinnati? Clown.

I don't remember Palmer ever saying anything even close to this. 

[XenoMorph]

(02-05-2023, 06:45 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Comparing Burrow and Mahomes is tough. PFF grades their OL so much better. With Joe’s accuracy give him time it would be interesting. In 2020 Mahomes struggled too with that OL. But I’d agree Patrick has a much better resume.

Mahomes is in a better designed offense  Andy reid is one of the top at that.

Hard to say which is exactly better with out all the other factors being the same.      But i wouldnt trade Burrow for any other QB right now

[Mike M (the other one)]

(02-05-2023, 06:57 PM)casear2727 Wrote: And the vast majority would say that only Bengals fans think Burrow is better or Pat's equal. 

I am very happy that Joe is in the conversation and has seemingly passed Allen.

they are both 1-2, too many factors though.
Such as if you swapped them, would Pat be as good as he is? or would Burrow be even bettter with Reid? Hard to say yes/no. So that means they are just that, 1-2, sometimes Pat will be 1, but i think in the long haul, Burrow might end up 1.

Pat just has more advantages right now. Give it time to see how it plays out.

RE: Josh, he needs to do what Pat/Joe have learned, take the short throws and quit trying so hard for the long ones. I'm not sure if that's scheme or he just won't take what the defenses are giving him and trying too hard

[Fullrock]

(02-06-2023, 11:13 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: I don't remember Palmer ever saying anything even close to this. 

You’re right, he didn’t say that in so many words, it was others in the media saying that exactly, but he did warn Burrow that he may not want to go to the Bengals because he questions the organization’s desire to win championships and surround him with talent.

[casear2727]

(02-06-2023, 11:08 AM)Fullrock Wrote: But wait Carson, I thought the Bengals would ruin Joe? I thought his career didn’t have a chance in Cincinnati? Clown.

(02-06-2023, 12:09 PM)Fullrock Wrote: You’re right, he didn’t say that in so many words, it was others in the media saying that exactly, but he did warn Burrow that he may not want to go to the Bengals because he questions the organization’s desire to win championships and surround him with talent.

He didnt say the Bengals would ruin Joe and Carson was absolutely correct in his assessment based upon his time in Cincy.  Brown lied to the guy and did not provide what he said he would to take the team to the next level.  This recency bias that MB was great and that Carson was simply some malcontent is comical.

Brown was the worst owner in professional sports, not the NFL, professional sports.  Articles were written about this, fans paid for planes to fly over the stadium during games with signs bashing Brown, anyone that has been a fan through the 90's and early 2000's knows this. Those of us who were fans in the late 70's and the 80's really felt the pain watching Brown not just take us backwards but humiliatingly bury us. 

[CincyWestside]

I hate the statistic that Mahomes is extra great because of his hosting of 5 straight AFCC games. Obviously hosting it is a feat of its own and 5 straight is unprecedented, but a lot of luck goes into all of that and shouldn't be used as weight for the "greatness" of a QB. If last year's playoff goes to chalk, then Tennessee is hosting KC in AFCC game and this isn't part of his greatness scale. Heck, if the NFL got their way this year, then AFCC would have been in ATL anyway.

Using this metric of hosting the AFCC game for weight of who is the better QB, will essentially boil down to the team record. In that case, then I think there needs to be consideration for the teams that they face in their own division when you say who is the greater. Yes, the AFCW on paper looked like it was going to be very competitive this season, but ultimately wasn't. Meanwhile, Burrow plays in arguably the toughest division in football. The AFCN is stacked with 2 future HOF and SB-winning coaches, tough top-10 defenses, and a former MVP QB. Not to mention Cleveland has actually been in the competitive mix for the last 4 to 5 years.

[casear2727]

(02-06-2023, 01:09 PM)CincyWestside Wrote: I hate the statistic that Mahomes is extra great because of his hosting of 5 straight AFCC games. Obviously hosting it is a feat of its own and 5 straight is unprecedented, but a lot of luck goes into all of that and shouldn't be used as weight for the "greatness" of a QB. If last year's playoff goes to chalk, then Tennessee is hosting KC in AFCC game and this isn't part of his greatness scale. Heck, if the NFL got their way this year, then AFCC would have been in ATL anyway.

Using this metric of hosting the AFCC game for weight of who is the better QB, will essentially boil down to the team record. In that case, then I think there needs to be consideration for the teams that they face in their own division when you say who is the greater. Yes, the AFCW on paper looked like it was going to be very competitive this season, but ultimately wasn't. Meanwhile, Burrow plays in arguably the toughest division in football. The AFCN is stacked with 2 future HOF and SB-winning coaches, tough top-10 defenses, and a former MVP QB. Not to mention Cleveland has actually been in the competitive mix for the last 4 to 5 years.

If anyone should hate the "luck" narrative it should be us.  We have seen "luck" as the supposed reasoning for our run last year.

5 straight is not luck, Mahomes is the #1 QB.  Let's try to host the AFC championship game once, let's hope Burrow becomes MVP once, and we win a SB instead of complaining about someone who has done all of this.  

Hell, Joe threw for a team record 35 TDs this season, and Mahomes, without his WR1, threw for 41, in his first season as a starter Pat threw 50 TDs.   We can love our QB to death, but Mahomes has earned his due respect.

[*Go Cards*]

Finally me and Carson agree on something

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

KC hosted three in a row . . . then Joe Burrow made it possible for four by beating the Titans, and then he made it possible for five in a row by beating Buffalo.

Mahomes is good, but very, very lucky. Drafted by a team that just went back to back seasons of 11-5 and 12-4 with Alex Smith at QB then sat for a year learning Andy Reid's offense. Does any sane person honestly think that if the Bears drafted Mahomes instead of Trubisky that he'd be in three Super Bowls in four years? I don't see it happening . . . but do you know what I do see? I see Joe Burrow going to a team worse than the '17 Bears, getting his knee shredded his rookie year and getting to the Super Bowl in his second year. Does anybody think that Pat Mahomes walks into Cincinnati in 2020, gets injured and has the Bengals in the Super Bowl a year later? I don't. He's played one game in his entire career behind a less than good o-line and the KC vlogs wear it like a ####ing badge, they mention it two or three times a week. In my opinion, Patrick Mahomes is not the best QB in the NFL, he's just merely the best QB to run Andy Reid's offense.

If you just swap the QBs for the last three seasons, Mahomes is probably closer to middle of the pack than top of the league. He walked into a well oiled machine that was already up and running . . . Joe walked into a warehouse that was partially full of assorted parts.

[*Nately120*]

(02-06-2023, 02:33 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Part of me wonders if Carson is saying this so that, if we fail to win a Super Bowl during Burrow's career, he can say "See? They have the best QB in the NFL and still can't win a Super Bowl. This is the problem with the Bengals' organization."

If this organization manages to find a way to win 0 SBs with Burrow I think everyone is going to declare the franchise to be the problem.