La'El Collins opt out

[*bengalfan74*]

(02-20-2023, 05:37 AM)casear2727 Wrote: Let's not get crazy, the guy graded out #65 out of 77 guards.  If we draft Torrence, Schmitz, Vorhees or Avila I feel great knowing Volson is a great depth player.

Agree

I'm on the fence about Volson. I mean he was decent, can he take the next step this coming season? But at any rate we need help on the Oline. And if Volson gets shoved back to backup, he'll be a good backup.

[Soonerpeace]

(02-20-2023, 03:31 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: The smack on Volson is some of the dumbest shit I’ve seen.

How many NFL caliber players do you think he faced while playing at NDSU?

I saw a rookie 4th round pick from a small school holding his own and at times bullying guys. And he wasn’t a penalty machine and seemed to do very well with the mental aspect.

He’ll be an upper echelon G in the league this year.

Completely agree

[Soonerpeace]

(02-19-2023, 11:48 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Continuity is great, but talent is better. Put the 5 best olinemen we have on the field.

Volsten is not very good

Jonah is oft-injured and not that good when healthy

RT is wide open

At pick 28 we need to draft the best olineman available

https://www.si.com/nfl/bengals/allbengals-insiders-plus/bengals-film-breakdown-analyzing-cordell-volson-improvement-throughout-rookie-season

[Frank Booth]

If you can upgrade LG, you do it. The Volson fanboys are very dedicated, I’ll give them that.

“Talking smack on Volson is the dumbest thing ever”

followed by...

“He’s gonna be one of the best guards in the league”

Lmao

[KillerGoose]

(02-20-2023, 03:31 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: The smack on Volson is some of the dumbest shit I’ve seen.

How many NFL caliber players do you think he faced while playing at NDSU?

I saw a rookie 4th round pick from a small school holding his own and at times bullying guys. And he wasn’t a penalty machine and seemed to do very well with the mental aspect.

He’ll be an upper echelon G in the league this year.

I don't think anyone is hating on Volson. They are pointing out that he wasn't very good last season, and he wasn't. That's okay to say, I don't think that anyone believes he is garbage and incapable of being good.

He wasn't good.

He did improve over the course of the season.

He could end up being a good player.

He isn't right now, though. The fact that he came from a small school and was a 4th round pick is irrelevant to all of that. He had his shot, and didn't do well but showed signs of picking it up. We'll see how he does next season. He'll probably be the guy. 

[Soonerpeace]

(02-20-2023, 11:05 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: I don't think anyone is hating on Volson. They are pointing out that he wasn't very good last season, and he wasn't. That's okay to say, I don't think that anyone believes he is garbage and incapable of being good.

He wasn't good.

He did improve over the course of the season.

He could end up being a good player.

He isn't right now, though. The fact that he came from a small school and was a 4th round pick is irrelevant to all of that. He had his shot, and didn't do well but showed signs of picking it up. We'll see how he does next season. He'll probably be the guy. 

I saw an article where 19 offensive line rookies started this year and by the end of the year he was grading near the top

[SunsetBengal]

(02-20-2023, 10:53 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: https://www.si.com/nfl/bengals/allbengals-insiders-plus/bengals-film-breakdown-analyzing-cordell-volson-improvement-throughout-rookie-season

Stop posting objective breakdowns like that, you'll ruin the haters' narrative that Volson is a horrible player.

[KillerGoose]

(02-20-2023, 11:16 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: I saw an article where 19 offensive line rookies started this year and by the end of the year he was grading near the top

This is a similar argument to what others are making. "He was good for a rookie". However, good for a rookie can still be bad when looking at the NFL as a whole. Providing objective analysis of a player shouldn't be labeled as "hating". I know you aren't saying that, but there are some people who get really up in arms if you suggest that Volson wasn't good. Here is where he ranked across the NFL in the major metrics...

Guards only (min. 500 snaps)


Pressure % - 48th out of 65
Sack % - 41st out of 65
Penalty % - 43rd out of 65
PFF Run Block Grade - 47th out of 65

Just a note to say I really don't like using any of PFF's grades as I don't think they have any value, but there is no very good metric for evaluating run block performance other than maybe YBC when running to that player. I don't have that data, though, so I just included grade. Now, Volson did improve as the season went on, so there is optimism around what he can do going forward. However, he objectively had a bad rookie season. I don't know how else to communicate that. 

[*SHRacerX*]

(02-19-2023, 11:17 PM)casear2727 Wrote: I get it's the off season and we have nothing else to discuss but.... really?

There is no competition at LT, unless they draft a 1st Rd LT.

Why in the world would they even consider moving Volson after he spent all season to learn guard?  He will be like a rookie all over again at RT, you all are killing this guy.

What do you think we would all say if the Bengals traded for an injury prone tackle with short arms that lead the league in sacks given up, oh and he costs 12.3M....? Lets agree that trading Jonah may be difficult.  We could trade Tee and make them take Jonah...?

I think you boys might want to slow your horses on some of these suggestions.  Consider how long it took for the oline to gel this past season.  Now you guys want to disrupt at least 2 spots maybe 3?

Bengals are pretty conservative and strive for continuity, I think they will keep the oline in tack as much as possible and hope they only have to deal with one new guy at RT.

Again, he played RT more than any other position i n his five years at NDSU, and played very little guard.  You could argue that the Bengals were "killing this guy" (AND CARMAN) by having them learn all new positions in the NFL, no less.

It wouldn't hurt him to try him at RT.  He could end up being an even bigger steal.  Or, he could move back to guard.  But I have seen enough of Adeniji and Smith is not reliable.  

What is your solution for RT next year?  Hope?  Overpay a FA with cap space they will need for other players?  

[Soonerpeace]

(02-20-2023, 11:49 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: This is a similar argument to what others are making. "He was good for a rookie". However, good for a rookie can still be bad when looking at the NFL as a whole. Providing objective analysis of a player shouldn't be labeled as "hating". I know you aren't saying that, but there are some people who get really up in arms if you suggest that Volson wasn't good. Here is where he ranked across the NFL in the major metrics...

Guards only (min. 500 snaps)


Pressure % - 48th out of 65
Sack % - 41st out of 65
Penalty % - 43rd out of 65
PFF Run Block Grade - 47th out of 65

Just a note to say I really don't like using any of PFF's grades as I don't think they have any value, but there is no very good metric for evaluating run block performance other than maybe YBC when running to that player. I don't have that data, though, so I just included grade. Now, Volson did improve as the season went on, so there is optimism around what he can do going forward. However, he objectively had a bad rookie season. I don't know how else to communicate that. 

I can buy he had a tough year but as a rookie not so much. By the end of the year those numbers weren’t reflective and he had some tough matchups early. The last half of the year he looked much better

[casear2727]

(02-20-2023, 12:08 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Again, he played RT more than any other position i n his five years at NDSU, and played very little guard.  You could argue that the Bengals were "killing this guy" (AND CARMAN) by having them learn all new positions in the NFL, no less.

It wouldn't hurt him to try him at RT.  He could end up being an even bigger steal.  Or, he could move back to guard.  But I have seen enough of Adeniji and Smith is not reliable.  

What is your solution for RT next year?  Hope?  Overpay a FA with cap space they will need for other players?  

Draft a RT, there will be 2 where we draft and another that proved he could make the transition.  We cant live off an oline full of free agents.

If we draft Torrence, Schmitz or Avila they push Volson out and then try him at RT I guess....but if he wasnt great vs speed in a phone booth I don't see how he could be better on an island?

As to Volson at RT in college, this is from the link above:  "Volson wasn't asked to pass protect all that often at North Dakota State, especially in true dropback scenarios."

[*rfaulk34*]

(02-20-2023, 10:56 AM)Frank Booth Wrote: If you can upgrade LG, you do it. The Volson fanboys are very dedicated, I’ll give them that.

“Talking smack on Volson is the dumbest thing ever”

followed by...

“He’s gonna be one of the best guards in the league”

Lmao

"upper echelon".

As i posted above (i think it was this thread). If he cuts his pressure numbers in half next year, he will be in the company of average NFL guards. He'd have to cut that number in half to become "upper echelon". 

[KillerGoose]

(02-20-2023, 12:17 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: I can buy he had a tough year but as a rookie not so much. By the end of the year those numbers weren’t reflective and he had some tough matchups early. The last half of the year he looked much better

That's completely fair. If someone wants to say "Hey, I realize he didn't have a great year overall but he was fine for a rookie. He improved as the season went on." then that is 100% reasonable. It is true. He was fine for a rookie, wasn't very good overall, but did improve. Some people just get really up in arms about the "he was bad overall" bit. I don't know why.

[Joelist]

What would be useful would be Volson's performance for each game in order and how he compared to the other NFL Guards after each game was completed. Then you can see if he trended in the right direction.

[Soonerpeace]

(02-20-2023, 12:28 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: That's completely fair. If someone wants to say "Hey, I realize he didn't have a great year overall but he was fine for a rookie. He improved as the season went on." then that is 100% reasonable. It is true. He was fine for a rookie, wasn't very good overall, but did improve. Some people just get really up in arms about the "he was bad overall" bit. I don't know why.

LOL some need this reminder:
What does being a rookie mean?
: beginner, recruit. especially : a first-year player in a professional sport.6 days ago

[*rfaulk34*]

(02-20-2023, 11:05 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: I don't think anyone is hating on Volson. They are pointing out that he wasn't very good last season, and he wasn't. That's okay to say, I don't think that anyone believes he is garbage and incapable of being good.

He wasn't good.

He did improve over the course of the season.

He could end up being a good player.

He isn't right now, though. The fact that he came from a small school and was a 4th round pick is irrelevant to all of that. He had his shot, and didn't do well but showed signs of picking it up. We'll see how he does next season. He'll probably be the guy. 

The "potential" for him to improve is all well and good but, worst case, depth is needed at that position. If you get a chance to improve a position, you improve a position. 

If he ends up looking better next TC, great. I'll be super happy. He has quite a bit of work to do.

[*rfaulk34*]

(02-20-2023, 11:16 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: I saw an article where 19 offensive line rookies started this year and by the end of the year he was grading near the top

On PFF there are 18 rookie offensive linemen that played 50% of max snaps. 

Overall, grade wise, Volson finished 13th.
He finished 12th in run blocking grade.
He finished 13th in pass blocking grade.

Numbers wise, he finished 12th in total pressures.
He finished 5th in least amount of sacks.
He finished 17th in least amount of hits.
He finished 9th in least amount of hurries. 
He finished 6th best in pass block efficiency. 

Seven of those rookies were guards and he finished smack dab in the middle of rookie guards in all those metrics. 

[ezekiel23]

As much as the Bengals organization has tried in recent years to get this Offensive Line fixed,they still have a mess on their hands.It’s frustrating to see how this OL was coming along so we’ll,(finally),and then the injuries started happening.

I personally believe we would have won the Super Bowl had that not happened.The Bengals obviously have a really bad problem on their hands with this OL and need to get it fixed.

I would find a way to get Collins and Williams out of the picture,and move on from there.That would be a good place to start,if they can do it.It might be easier said than done,but they need to move on from these guys first.

We all know that with a good OL,nobody can beat this team.Therefore,the OL should be the primary focus moving forward.

[casear2727]

(02-20-2023, 12:55 PM)ezekiel23 Wrote: As much as the Bengals organization has tried in recent years to get this Offensive Line fixed,they still have a mess on their hands.It’s frustrating to see how this OL was coming along so we’ll,(finally),and then the injuries started happening.

I personally believe we would have won the Super Bowl had that not happened.The Bengals obviously have a really bad problem on their hands with this OL and need to get it fixed.

I would find a way to get Collins and Williams out of the picture,and move on from there.That would be a good place to start,if they can do it.It might be easier said than done,but they need to move on from these guys first.

We all know that with a good OL,nobody can beat this team.Therefore,the OL should be the primary focus moving forward.

Jonah is only gone with a trade, who does that?
LC cant be cut while injured.

If you are starting here, it will most likely be next season before you do. We must a draft a quality tackle this draft.

[KillerGoose]

(02-20-2023, 12:37 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: LOL some need this reminder:
What does being a rookie mean?
: beginner, recruit. especially : a first-year player in a professional sport.6 days ago

I don't need this reminder. We're about to go in circles again. Volson was bad, overall. Him being a rookie is irrelevant to that. At best, it is an excuse. Comparing him to other rookies, he may have been fine. This does not mean that he is beyond repair, or that he is garbage, or that he is incapable of improving, or that he will never be good or whatever else can be thought of here.

It means he was bad. I don't care if he was a rookie or a 14 year vet. This is a Super Bowl caliber team with a massive deficit at OL. Making excuses for a bad OL player because he is a rookie is silly. Believing that he can't improve is also silly. This isn't difficult.