La'El Collins opt out

[TecmoBengals]

(02-22-2023, 10:08 AM)Frank Booth Wrote: WHY would Karras bash his teammate to the media? Of course he’s going to praise him

Your point is reasonable, however, Karras also doesn't have to say anything at all to the media. He could be concise with a response that doesn't bash him or offer much praise. Perhaps some extra gushing reveals an authentic opinion that Karras does sincerely believe Volson has talent.

Now, if Karras is on the official journalistic record praising Adeniji I'll concede the coach speak take is spot on.

[Frank Booth]

(02-22-2023, 10:20 AM)TecmoBengals Wrote: Your point is reasonable, however, Karras also doesn't have to say anything at all to the media. He could be concise with a response that doesn't bash him or offer much praise. Perhaps some extra gushing reveals an authentic opinion that Karras does sincerely believe Volson has talent.

Now, if Karras is on the official journalistic record praising Adeniji I'll concede the coach speak take is spot on.

Of course he has praised Adeniji. The reporters are always talking to Ted, and when Collins went down, obviously Karras was showering Adeniji with praise.

[XenoMorph]

i would wait to see what we can replace him with before id let him go.

[Sled21]

(02-22-2023, 10:08 AM)Frank Booth Wrote: WHY would Karras bash his teammate to the media? Of course he’s going to praise him

This is like the fifth time somebody has referenced some kind of coach/player speak as proof of something. Hilarious

Do us a favor, get some awareness

I KNEW this would be your response. You're so predictable. Why would he bash him? He wouldn't. He could have said he's coming along nicely, he's working hard, he's learning the NFL and a new position. But he didn't. He said he expects him to be a top guard for a very long time. That's putting it out there. And like I said, I'll take Karras and Cappa's evaluation over yours 10 days a week.

[Sled21]

(02-22-2023, 10:27 AM)Frank Booth Wrote: Of course he has praised Adeniji. The reporters are always talking to Ted, and when Collins went down, obviously Karras was showering Adeniji with praise.

Show us where Karras predicted great things for Adeniji...

[Frank Booth]

(02-22-2023, 10:45 AM)Sled21 Wrote: I KNEW this would be your response. You're so predictable. Why would he bash him? He wouldn't. He could have said he's coming along nicely, he's working hard, he's learning the NFL and a new position. But he didn't. He said he expects him to be a top guard for a very long time. That's putting it out there. And like I said, I'll take Karras and Cappa's evaluation over yours 10 days a week.

He wouldn’t bash him, but it’s Ted karrras talking about a rookie teammate. Hell yes he should praise him. Hell no you shouldn’t take it as gospel

(02-22-2023, 10:46 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Show us where Karras predicted great things for Adeniji...

Im not saying he predicted a great future for Adeniji, I’m saying he showered him with praise. I’m not going back to look, just check out the Karras interviews after the patriots game.

[Sled21]

(02-22-2023, 10:52 AM)Frank Booth Wrote: He wouldn’t bash him, but it’s Ted karrras talking about a rookie teammate. Hell yes he should praise him. Hell no you shouldn’t take it as gospel


Im not saying he predicted a great future for Adeniji, I’m saying he showered him with praise. I’m not going back to look, just check out the Karras interviews after the patriots game.

So he didn't say the same thing about Adeniji that he said about Volson. And yes, I will take what Ted Karras says over what you or any other message board posters says every time. 

[Frank Booth]

(02-22-2023, 10:57 AM)Sled21 Wrote: So he didn't say the same thing about Adeniji that he said about Volson. And yes, I will take what Ted Karras says over what you or any other message board posters says every time. 

Volson’s a rookie, dude. You’re supposed to say that stuff about your rookie teammate as a professional. Especially because it keeps fans at bay. Aka you. Congrats

[*ochocincos*]

(02-22-2023, 09:49 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Some of you are nothing if not hilarious with your takes. The people bashing Volson are the same people who said over and over again that Carman was a wasted pick and would never see anything but the bench, and now we're talking about him winning the LT position. So go ahead and post all the PFF garbage, and go on and comment on how horrible Volson is. About 2/3rds of the way through the season, Ted Karras and Alex Cappa said they fully expect Volson to become a top 5 guard in the NFL. I think I'll go with their opinion of how he plays and how he's improving.....

On edit: I don't remember the link where I read Cappa and Karras' prediction of him being a top 5 guard, but here is another statement from him. Like I said, I'll go with Karras' assessment,

https://www.bengals.com/news/cordell-volson-emerging-as-future-anchor-on-o-line

Volson's criticism by many (including myself) came from the fact he didn't show good athleticism leading up to the draft, and scouting reports from many sources reflected the same. People weren't happy with the selection back in the Spring because we thought the Bengals wanted to have this wide zone blocking scheme and needed uber-athletic guys at all OL spots. Volson was (and is) not that.

Also, quite a lot of sources during the draft projected Volson as probably a backup in the NFL, not a starter.
They didn't feel he had a high enough ceiling and/or couldn't get his deficiencies improved.
And what we saw in 2022 was a guy who started off horrible but worked his way to maybe decent by season's end. He's not "good" by any means yet.

Maybe Volson gets there eventually, but I think it's fine if people want to point out there's room for improvement. There's room for improvement at both OT positions too.
I'm fine with keeping Volson at LG as I see the OT positions as higher priority given Williams is in the final year of his contract and Collins' injury is significant.

[*bfine32*]

(02-22-2023, 09:49 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Some of you are nothing if not hilarious with your takes. The people bashing Volson are the same people who said over and over again that Carman was a wasted pick and would never see anything but the bench, and now we're talking about him winning the LT position. So go ahead and post all the PFF garbage, and go on and comment on how horrible Volson is. About 2/3rds of the way through the season, Ted Karras and Alex Cappa said they fully expect Volson to become a top 5 guard in the NFL. I think I'll go with their opinion of how he plays and how he's improving.....

On edit: I don't remember the link where I read Cappa and Karras' prediction of him being a top 5 guard, but here is another statement from him. Like I said, I'll go with Karras' assessment,

https://www.bengals.com/news/cordell-volson-emerging-as-future-anchor-on-o-line

Why do we use "microaggressive" terms such as "hate' and "bash"? I've seen no one in the thread bash or hate CV. I have seen folks assert the 2023 Cincinnati Bengals could use an upgrade at LG. I'm sure everyone was pleased with what CV did for use as a mid-round rookie, but that doesn't mean we cannot point out what we consider a weak link on a Superbowl winning caliber team.

I'd love for the Bengals to draft a player like John Michael Schmitz early in the 2023 draft and play him and Karras at the LG-C positions. Then Volson can be valuable depth on the interior line.  

As to folks calling Carman a wasted pick, sure there were those, but it doesn't make every opinion they have "hilarious" (more microaggression). Hell, I remember when LC went down, and I stated we needed to sell out to improve the position via FA, even if it meant clearing up funds by cutting Scharping. Some dudes that was "hilarious" because Max was so valuable as an interior olineman.   That dude came in and was not so valuable. 

[*bfine32*]

(02-22-2023, 10:57 AM)Sled21 Wrote: So he didn't say the same thing about Adeniji that he said about Volson. And yes, I will take what Ted Karras says over what you or any other message board posters says every time. 

Ted Karras Wrote:  I have  all the confidence in the world. He's (Adeniji) played a lot of football for us already this year and done a great job, and you know we got a good unit.

Cincinnati Bengals Offensive Tackle Hakeem Adeniji Is Ready To Show His Growth In New Starting Role - Sports Illustrated Cincinnati Bengals News, Analysis and More

So are you taking Karras' word that Adeniji has done a great job or going with message board posters who say his performance was less than great? 

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(02-22-2023, 01:24 AM)007BengalsFan Wrote: The first time Williams hurt his knee was in the 5th game of the season against the Ravens.  I dont remember Williams doing all that great even before the injury against the Ravens although someone with a PFF subscription could correct me if I am wrong. 

As far as the 2021 season, even in 2021 Williams still gave up 8 sacks which put him in the top 5 of all tackles in sacks allowed.  This makes two years in a row Williams has been one of the worst tackles protecting his QB.  Personally, I wouldnt expect any dramatic change in year 5.  I would think he probably finishes toward the top in sacks allowed for the 3rd year in a row.  I will also expect some fans will continue to make the excuse for him this year that he had surgery in the offseason so he shouldnt be expected to play well when it does happen.

Could've sworn it was the Jets game, but I was mistaken. I'm not gonna make an excuse for anyone, but that has to slow one down somewhat. He definitely graded better in '21, but the sack total is concerning, no doubt.

[*ochocincos*]

(02-21-2023, 08:27 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Folks just like to proclaim "hate" because they think any opinion that disagrees with theirs has no merit.

I hope Volston becomes the next great OG in the league, but it's obvious our oline needs upgrading and if you ask me for the weakest link in our 2022 oline starters I'd say it was Cordell Volston. Hell even Hakeen Adeniji outscored him according to PFF.

Yes and no.

If looking at the overall grade in the regular season only, Adeniji had a higher grade than Volson.
But Volson still had a better PFF pass block rating in the regular season than Adeniji (52.9 vs Adeniji's 48.4).

In the postseason, it's glaringly different.
Adeniji - 29.8 PBR (15 pressures allowed); 43.6 overall
Volson - 54.0 PBR (5 pressures allowed); 62.9 overall

For those that don't know, the 50's is just "meh starter" level.
60-70 is solid
70-80 is above average
80+ is great

I can agree with you that Volson is probably the worst starter on the team, although he's pretty consistent now. You don't have a lot of down performances from him. It's unfortunately just consistently meh.
Meanwhile, the OTs have injuries and their contracts are almost up (Williams final year, Collins 2nd-to-last year).
The Bengals can get by with one OL performing like Volson and be in a really good spot.
They can't have Volson at his level while also having someone like Adeniji also on the OL performing (well) below average.
That's the kind of thing that gets your QB pressured a ton.

[Frank Booth]

(02-22-2023, 12:44 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Yes and no.

If looking at the overall grade in the regular season only, Adeniji had a higher grade than Volson.
But Volson still had a better PFF pass block rating in the regular season than Adeniji (52.9 vs Adeniji's 48.4).

In the postseason, it's glaringly different.
Adeniji - 29.8 PBR (15 pressures allowed); 43.6 overall
Volson - 54.0 PBR (5 pressures allowed); 62.9 overall

For those that don't know, the 50's is just "meh starter" level.
60-70 is solid
70-80 is above average
80+ is great

I can agree with you that Volson is probably the worst starter on the team, although he's pretty consistent now. You don't have a lot of down performances from him. It's unfortunately just consistently meh.
Meanwhile, the OTs have injuries and their contracts are almost up (Williams final year, Collins 2nd-to-last year).
The Bengals can get by with one OL performing like Volson and be in a really good spot.
They can't have Volson at his level while also having someone like Adeniji also on the OL performing (well) below average.
That's the kind of thing that gets your QB pressured a ton.

I can accept meh from a LG but this team has tackle questions as well. It’s not like when Whit and Smith were here and you could live with a Volson type at guard.

If cincy thinks they can upgrade LG, and the opportunity is there, we all should be for it

[TecmoBengals]

(02-22-2023, 10:27 AM)Frank Booth Wrote: Of course he has praised Adeniji. The reporters are always talking to Ted, and when Collins went down, obviously Karras was showering Adeniji with praise.

I'd be interested in seeing how he framed his comments but I'm not using the almighty internet to look up such info. Laziness prevails.

[*bfine32*]

(02-22-2023, 12:44 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Yes and no.

If looking at the overall grade in the regular season only, Adeniji had a higher grade than Volson.
But Volson still had a better PFF pass block rating in the regular season than Adeniji (52.9 vs Adeniji's 48.4).

In the postseason, it's glaringly different.
Adeniji - 29.8 PBR (15 pressures allowed); 43.6 overall
Volson - 54.0 PBR (5 pressures allowed); 62.9 overall

For those that don't know, the 50's is just "meh starter" level.
60-70 is solid
70-80 is above average
80+ is great

I can agree with you that Volson is probably the worst starter on the team, although he's pretty consistent now. You don't have a lot of down performances from him. It's unfortunately just consistently meh.
Meanwhile, the OTs have injuries and their contracts are almost up (Williams final year, Collins 2nd-to-last year).
The Bengals can get by with one OL performing like Volson and be in a really good spot.
They can't have Volson at his level while also having someone like Adeniji also on the OL performing (well) below average.
That's the kind of thing that gets your QB pressured a ton.

(02-22-2023, 12:58 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: I can accept meh from a LG but this team has tackle questions as well. It’s not like when Whit and Smith were here and you could live with a Volson type at guard.

If cincy thinks they can upgrade LG, and the opportunity is there, we all should be for it

This is where I'm at. If we can upgrade from Jonah, I'm all for that as well; it doesn't mean I'm hating/bashing. I've advocated for John M. Schmitz (U of Minn.) and want him and JB to be the modern pay Manning/Saturday for the next decade. But the team might not want to break the chemistry Karras-JB have.

I'd be equally as happy if we drafted a LT (Jones/Freeland) and let Jonah/Carman/Volson battle it out for RT/LG.

I just want the 5 best linemen we can get on the field and I currently see LG as a weakness

[Bengalholic]

Did anyone find anything definitive about whether Collins can be cut or not? I know they can cut him at the end of preseason, whether he's still injured or not...but how about before then? 

I was under the impression that an injured player couldn't be cut during the offseason, but Dehner and Morrison both had him as one of their offseason cuts, and Jake Liscow said he could be released while injured but it would reduce the cap savings from 6m to 4m?

Extremely confusing. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(02-22-2023, 02:34 PM)bfine32 Wrote: This is where I'm at. If we can upgrade from Jonah, I'm all for that as well; it doesn't mean I'm hating/bashing. I've advocated for John M. Schmitz (U of Minn.) and want him and JB to be the modern pay Manning/Saturday for the next decade. But the team might not want to break the chemistry Karras-JB have.

I'd be equally as happy if we drafted a LT (Jones/Freeland) and let Jonah/Carman/Volson battle it out for RT/LG.

I just want the 5 best linemen we can get on the field and I currently see LG as a weakness

I can understand this and I am a big time Volson backer after his rookie season. We should be looking to upgrade every position on the 
OL besides Center and RG where we are set. Continue seeking perfection in front of Burrow and we will be great on Offense for a long 
time, Volson like Ochocincos said is not the best athlete but he is consistently decent and that was as a rookie.

I still think he wins out the LG spot no matter who we bring in, the Tackle spots are where I am worried anyways and Volson can even
play both Tackles spots too which is another plus from him unlike Carman who can only play on the left side.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(02-22-2023, 03:19 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Did anyone find anything definitive about whether Collins can be cut or not? I know they can cut him at the end of preseason, whether he's still injured or not...but how about before then? 

I was under the impression that an injured player couldn't be cut during the offseason, but Dehner and Morrison both had him as one of their offseason cuts, and Jake Liscow said he could be released while injured but it would reduce the cap savings from 6m to 4m?

Extremely confusing. 

So still not cleared up... lol

[fortyyearfan]

(02-18-2023, 10:20 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Is an injury settlement needed to part ways with Collins? Whatever the case, I just don't think you can trust his body / health enough at this point...and his overall play wasn't great before the knee injury, struggling with the back issues all year.

Please cut Jonah Williams, for sure Collins,both are horrible and Williams cannot handle the big powerful D studs, and Collins cannot handle fast outside D
-linemen.You can find their replacements in free agency.Number one job is to put together a powerful O-line that can come to training camp and jell.They must protect the number one man. Joe Burrow is getting killed and our  AFC is no joke,Toughest in all of NFL.