Tobin and ZT Speak at Combine

[Joelist]

Alas they won't move on Mixon until after the draft. They need to know what they will have to work with.

SHOULD they move on from Mixon? I have to say yes. He is a total liability in pass protection and does not give enough in the run game to make up for his bad pass blocking limiting the playbook when he is in. I am still kinda thinking we might see RB in an early round especially given how low we are in draft order.

[casear2727]

(03-01-2023, 07:38 PM)Au165 Wrote: Tyler Boyd's base pay on year 4 per his rookie deal was supposed to be 900k or so. What Tyler Boyd actually got paid in 2019 was 2 million base (Almost the value of the whole contracts base pay), 2.25 million roster bonus (not signing bonus), and a 50k workout bonus (does not exist in rookie 2nd rd contracts). All of that was NOT in his rookie deal and was added to his final year ALONG WITH a 7 million dollar signing bonus that was prorated over the life of his contract. 

Your belief on how this works, as was the other dudes, is wrong. The final year number is often renegotiated sometimes minimal sometimes heavily. It's actually funny because the entire logic forgets that restructures exist to literally move the base pay in the later year of a contract into bonus to spread it over the life of the deal, which includes new years. Restructures (specifically void years) are considered extensions but very seriously change the base pay of current contracts which is how this whole argument started with the belief you could not change that final year, which happens all the time.

"All of that was NOT in his rookie deal and was added to his final year"

Of course the signing bonus and roster bonus were NOT in his rookie deal..?????  But they were NOT added in his contract to the final year of his rookie deal, you seriously said this....?

Signing bonuses are paid when the player signs the deal and in the year the player sign and receives the cash at that time, this has nothing to do with the initial contract, nothing is added.  Burrow will receive a signing bonus on his new deal 2 years before his extension goes into effect, it will not be added to his rookie contract just because of the timing...  what are you trying to say?

If you do the math for years 2020 to 2023:
Salaries + Signing bonus + roster bonuses + game bonuses + workout bonuses the total is roughly 41.7M

If you add the per game bonus of 2019 and the small work bonuses the total is 42.05, subtract this from 43M (the actual amount of the 2nd contract) and that seems to be the difference in his 2019 salary raise.


There are no void years with Boyd, when do we do void years?  Riley Reiff once?  I know you are adding this simply to try to add some bloviated feaux expertise but it is silly to mention.

No one said the final year couldn't change, I simply said I totally disagree that it happens all the time.  I didnt see it whatsoever with the handful of players extended this season that I checked on. 


What actually is really funny is that you think you know so much more about contracts and what you are spewing is some nonsense and some really basic stuff we all know.  

[Au165]

(03-04-2023, 12:16 AM)casear2727 Wrote: "All of that was NOT in his rookie deal and was added to his final year"

Of course the signing bonus and roster bonus were NOT in his rookie deal..?????  But they were NOT added in his contract to the final year of his rookie deal, you seriously said this....?

Signing bonuses are paid when the player signs the deal and in the year the player sign and receives the cash at that time, this has nothing to do with the initial contract, nothing is added.  Burrow will receive a signing bonus on his new deal 2 years before his extension goes into effect, it will not be added to his rookie contract just because of the timing...  what are you trying to say?

If you do the math for years 2020 to 2023:
Salaries + Signing bonus + roster bonuses + game bonuses + workout bonuses the total is roughly 41.7M

If you add the per game bonus of 2019 and the small work bonuses the total is 42.05, subtract this from 43M (the actual amount of the 2nd contract) and that seems to be the difference in his 2019 salary raise.


There are no void years with Boyd, when do we do void years?  Riley Reiff once?  I know you are adding this simply to try to add some bloviated feaux expertise but it is silly to mention.

No one said the final year couldn't change, I simply said I totally disagree that it happens all the time.  I didnt see it whatsoever with the handful of players extended this season that I checked on. 


What actually is really funny is that you think you know so much more about contracts and what you are spewing is some nonsense and some really basic stuff we all know.  

This is a bunch of straw man arguments, semantics and nonsense. Your argument isn’t even arguing anything at this point except bouncing around to random points. Someone did say the last year couldn’t change, it wasn’t you but my point was to him. As to your point, still don’t know what you’re even arguing. You said “this isn’t how extensions work” and yet again yes what I described is exactly how an extension can work.

Guess what, if that last year of the deal is nothing like the deal they signed as a rookie they did in fact “tear it up”. Which is exactly what does happen often and most likely will happen on any Tee Higgins deal.

[casear2727]

(03-04-2023, 02:13 AM)Au165 Wrote: This is a bunch of straw man arguments, semantics and nonsense. Between factually incorrect and arguing things out of context it’s not really worth point by pointing. My example of a Tee contract stands. I even ran it by someone who works on the personnel side of an NFL team who said he could see it if Tee wants to stay.

You ran it by a NFL captologist did you?  

Is this the same person that told you extension signing bonuses were added on to rookie contracts?

I'll accept your white flag, that was an awful argument.

[Au165]

(03-04-2023, 02:23 AM)casear2727 Wrote: You ran it by a NFL captologist did you?  

Is this the same person that told you extension signing bonuses were added on to rookie contracts?

I'll accept your white flag, that was an awful argument.

Nope, analyst in a personnel department.

Never said they were “added to the rookie deal” what are you talking about? I think you’re confusing a point I was making to the other guy with something else. I’m literally saying the last year is basically not the last year of the rookie deal. It’s basically a whole new deal with an entirely different cap number beyond simply a pro rated signing bonus on what would have been the 4th year on the rookie deal.

Again, you are all over.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(02-28-2023, 07:29 PM)Au165 Wrote: I am not convinced you can't get a Tee deal done now at a reasonable deal to get him extended for 2 more years beyond this year. He is making bare bones this year, so if you are willing to bring him up to say 15 this year from his current rate then say 19 next which is close to this years tag number and say 21 the following year I think you can punt the decision for a while and see how it falls.

The benefit for Tee is he is making a lot more this year than he would playing his deal out, so it's essentially trading an extra 12 this year and then playing a bit under the next two but considering if we sit on him this year at 3 million it works out the same total comp wise over next 3. If you structured the guarantees heavily across all three years I bet you could get it done. Otherwise he plays this year on his deal, then gets tagged next and maybe in 3 years he finally gets paid. Money now is worth more than money later in the Not For Long league.

I like your thoughts here Au165 as usual. Hope we handle it this way and hopefully Tee gets a ring or 2 while we play this out.

(02-28-2023, 08:47 PM)Au165 Wrote: Is a function of value to production. No matter the circumstance his production does not, and never really has, justified his pay. Mixon has to go, even at 6 million he would barely be a positive return on spend. The position is a dime a dozen position OUTSIDE of pass protection which he can’t do.

They should be looking at a day 3 back to platoon with a veteran who can pass protect, maybe Perine on a cheap deal. This roster is not built to run and they aren’t going to pay Burrow like a top 3 QB to turn around and hand it off a ton. It doesn’t mean we won’t run but look no further than how KC handled HB this year with Pacheco and McKinnon.

Spot on about Mixon, feel the same way as you know, Mixon isn't worth what he is being paid production wise, let alone him 
being poor in pass protection which is essential to being a starting RB in the NFL today. Perine on a cheap deal, fix the OL and
draft a RB on day 3 that can pass protect. Try and do what the Chiefs did, tough to do though, those were knock out moves.

McKinnon is a fantastic pass protector and Pacheco was a diamond in the rough.

[Soonerpeace]

The Bengals have met with distinctly more tight ends and running backs than any other position so far at the combine, as far as reported visits go.

— Jake Liscow (@JakeLiscow) March 4, 2023

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-04-2023, 04:29 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote:

The Bengals have met with distinctly more tight ends and running backs than any other position so far at the combine, as far as reported visits go.

— Jake Liscow (@JakeLiscow) March 4, 2023

Hmmm...

Interesting, maybe they ARE looking to get a couple OT's like Donavan Smith and Taylor Lewan in FA after both are cut and their price 
is low. Think everyone and their Momma knows we need at the very least a RT even if the coaches are talking about Jackson Carman 
there, he clearly looked ten times better on the left side. Jonah can play RT as he played it in college, this makes more sense if we 
move a guy and grab a LT in FA like Smith or/and Lewan.

That would make me feel better about taking a TE or a RB early, there are some good ones in this draft. Washington, Mayer, Whyle, 
LaPorta at TE and Bijan Robinson should be a thought if he somehow falls to us. He would improve the running game and is a great
pass protector, kills 2 birds with 1 stone.

[casear2727]

(03-04-2023, 02:26 AM)Au165 Wrote: Nope, analyst in a personnel department.

Never said they were “added to the rookie deal” what are you talking about? I think you’re confusing a point I was making to the other guy with something else. I’m literally saying the last year is basically not the last year of the rookie deal. It’s basically a whole new deal with an entirely different cap number beyond simply a pro rated signing bonus on what would have been the 4th year on the rookie deal.

Again, you are all over.

 What Tyler Boyd actually got paid in 2019 was 2 million base (Almost the value of the whole contracts base pay), 2.25 million roster bonus (not signing bonus), and a 50k workout bonus (does not exist in rookie 2nd rd contracts). All of that was NOT in his rookie deal and was added to his final year ALONG WITH a 7 million dollar signing bonus that was prorated over the life of his contract. 

But you did say this, not sure what you meant, but.. it is right here ^.....? 

Every extension is a whole new deal... New bonuses always impact the cap no matter when they are applied.  I have no idea what you are trying to say?  

[Au165]

(03-04-2023, 08:46 PM)casear2727 Wrote:  What Tyler Boyd actually got paid in 2019 was 2 million base (Almost the value of the whole contracts base pay), 2.25 million roster bonus (not signing bonus), and a 50k workout bonus (does not exist in rookie 2nd rd contracts). All of that was NOT in his rookie deal and was added to his final year ALONG WITH a 7 million dollar signing bonus that was prorated over the life of his contract. 

But you did say this, not sure what you meant, but.. it is right here ^.....? 

Every extension is a whole new deal... New bonuses always impact the cap no matter when they are applied.  I have no idea what you are trying to say?  

The more I read through this I am beginning to think we are saying the thing but semantically different. It’s like a who’s on first thing that was started because I replied to one guy you combo replied both and I think you were saying part of what I said and then a semantically different way of saying another and it tail spinned.

If you ever end up on the discord may be a better discussion to have in real time.

[casear2727]

(03-04-2023, 09:14 PM)Au165 Wrote: The more I read through this I am beginning to think we are saying the thing but semantically different. It’s like a who’s on first thing that was started because I replied to one guy you combo replied both and I think you were saying part of what I said and then a semantically different way of saying another and it tail spinned.

If you ever end up on the discord may be a better discussion to have in real time.

I think there are many questions at the end of Boyd's rookie deal and it was never reported by the media.

Tyler had a workout bonus in 2018 and 2019.... not normal.

The Roster Bonus and difference in salary in 2019 make the math right for the 43M extension...

I do not disagree that something was changed to the final year of the rookie deal, and it is odd that it is not reported anywhere.

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

(03-04-2023, 02:13 AM)Au165 Wrote: This is a bunch of straw man arguments, semantics and nonsense. Your argument isn’t even arguing anything at this point except bouncing around to random points. Someone did say the last year couldn’t change, it wasn’t you but my point was to him. As to your point, still don’t know what you’re even arguing. You said “this isn’t how extensions work” and yet again yes what I described is exactly how an extension can work.

Guess what, if that last year of the deal is nothing like the deal they signed as a rookie they did in fact “tear it up”. Which is exactly what does happen often and most likely will happen on any Tee Higgins deal.

Yes, the salary bonuses get added in ti some degree when the player signs a new deal, but since it is usually spread out, it is not that big of an increase. I mean, the looming cap issues hit when Burrow goes from $10 to $50 (2025), Higgins goes from $3 to $20 (2024), and Chase goes from $13 to $30 (2026), not because their extension pro-rated signing bonuses get added on before the extension kicks in. Those don't balloon their salaries. The extensions do when they kick in AFTER the original contract expires. The original contract numbers stay the same, they don't get changed because someone signs an extension. When the original terms altered, that is a restructure, not an extension. 

[Sled21]

(03-04-2023, 05:15 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Hmmm...

Interesting, maybe they ARE looking to get a couple OT's like Donavan Smith and Taylor Lewan in FA after both are cut and their price 
is low. Think everyone and their Momma knows we need at the very least a RT even if the coaches are talking about Jackson Carman 
there, he clearly looked ten times better on the left side. Jonah can play RT as he played it in college, this makes more sense if we 
move a guy and grab a LT in FA like Smith or/and Lewan.

That would make me feel better about taking a TE or a RB early, there are some good ones in this draft. Washington, Mayer, Whyle, 
LaPorta at TE and Bijan Robinson should be a thought if he somehow falls to us. He would improve the running game and is a great
pass protector, kills 2 birds with 1 stone.

I wonder how much of it is gamesmanship as well. We barely met with Burrow, although it was a given we were taking him. But, it they plan on drafting a Tackle, they may be talking to a lot of TE's and Running backs just so other teams don't screw us by focusing on blocking our picks. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-07-2023, 10:26 AM)Sled21 Wrote: I wonder how much of it is gamesmanship as well. We barely met with Burrow, although it was a given we were taking him. But, it they plan on drafting a Tackle, they may be talking to a lot of TE's and Running backs just so other teams don't screw us by focusing on blocking our picks. 

Hope so, it is a good move to throw other teams off of what you are going to do. I know we talked to Darnell Wright who is my guy at 28.

But talking to lots of TE's and RB's definitely shows we aren't ignoring the possible exits of Hurst and Mixon, although I think Hurst is back.

This is a very good TE class. I like about 10 dudes in this class. If we can add a RB that can pass protect and let Mixon's salary go we can 
still add a vet OT like Donavan Smith, Eluemunor, or George Fant I am sure.

[007BengalsFan]

(03-07-2023, 03:01 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Hope so, it is a good move to throw other teams off of what you are going to do. I know we talked to Darnell Wright who is my guy at 28.

But talking to lots of TE's and RB's definitely shows we aren't ignoring the possible exits of Hurst and Mixon, although I think Hurst is back.

This is a very good TE class. I like about 10 dudes in this class. If we can add a RB that can pass protect and let Mixon's salary go we can 
still add a vet OT like Donavan Smith, Eluemunor, or George Fant I am sure.

I would rather have Eluemunor than Fant.  Eluemunor is a couple years younger,  would play as well as Fant and would be cheaper for the cap.  Fant is pretty mediocre so I dont see him improving the RT position if we were to sign him. 

At LT I would rather have Taylor Lewan than Donavan Smith.  When both are healthy, Taylor Lewan is a much better LT.  Lewan doesnt give up the sacks like Smith does

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-07-2023, 05:43 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: I would rather have Eluemunor than Fant.  Eluemunor is a couple years younger,  would play as well as Fant and would be cheaper for the cap.  Fant is pretty mediocre so I dont see him improving the RT position if we were to sign him. 

At LT I would rather have Taylor Lewan than Donavan Smith.  When both are healthy, Taylor Lewan is a much better LT.  Lewan doesnt give up the sacks like Smith does

I agree, would rather have Eluemunor myself. Would be awesome if we added Lewan and Eluemunor and traded Jonah like you said in 
the Donavan Smith thread. I also have not been impressed with Jonah even when he has been healthy the last couple years. Carman 
honestly impressed me much more late last season and in the Playoffs. He wasn't getting pushed around, he was doing the pushing.