This is the Worst Free Agency I've Ever Seen since Burrow was Drafted.

[*rfaulk34*]

(08-14-2023, 06:11 AM)BengalYankee Wrote: That is an ugly stupid take. We didn't win prior to Burrow, more importantly, we were winning games during his rookie year BEFORE he was injured.

The other ugly stupid take is that using your logic the Bengals are going to spend a lot of money on Burrow than possibly two WRs. 

Just admit it you are a Zac fanboy. 

I think it took a while to get all the pieces together, so judging the first year might not give the answer for what would happen now. Any backup certainly isn't going to get the results that Burrow gets, but it's not out of the question for them to have a decent record with what they have, along with a QB not named Burrow.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(08-13-2023, 10:53 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: now I cant prove it, but I guarantee Marvin Lewis wouldnt have the same success with Burrow that Taylor has had

I think this is probably correct. But, because Marvin was hindered by Mike Brown the owner/GM who wanted to convert a DE to TE like when Utetcht went down instead of signing an actual NFL ready TE. Or sign an aging James Harrison to play 4-3 SAM to stop the run and cover TEs instead of rushing the passer. Probably no end to the behind the scenes facepalm moments. Free agency is just one example. Everything else Mike Brown resisted which has changed since Marvin left is because Mike Brown isn’t in control any more. As a result, Duke Tobin’s drafts and free agency classes look a whole lot better. Apparently, the football gene must be recessive because it skipped a generation.

[BFritz21]

(08-14-2023, 12:03 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I think this is probably correct. But, because Marvin was hindered by Mike Brown the owner/GM who wanted to convert a DE to TE like when Utetcht went down instead of signing an actual NFL ready TE. Or sign an aging James Harrison to play 4-3 SAM to stop the run and cover TEs instead of rushing the passer. Probably no end to the behind the scenes facepalm moments. Free agency is just one example. Everything else Mike Brown resisted which has changed since Marvin left is because Mike Brown isn’t in control any more.  As a result, Duke Tobin’s drafts and free agency classes look a whole lot better. Apparently, the football gene must be recessive because it skipped a generation.

Or played Geathers at backer because of injuries at backer and refused to just sign a competent backer!

I think that's how it went but it was so long ago (2006 I think?) that I'm not sure.

I also think he was coming off a 10.5 sack season!

[BengalYankee]

(08-14-2023, 12:01 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I think it took a while to get all the pieces together, so judging the first year might not give the answer for what would happen now. Any backup certainly isn't going to get the results that Burrow gets, but it's not out of the question for them to have a decent record with what they have, along with a QB not named Burrow.

A nice take. 

[Shake n Blake]

(08-13-2023, 02:49 PM)SouthernFan Wrote: Seriously?  You truly believe that Katie has been running this team for the past 20 years?  GTFOH!

It's been said that Katie wanted Marv and Mike wanted Mike Mularky. I want to say that even Mike has said this.

I don't think Katie was "running the team" back then, but she definitely had a lot of sway, even back then.

(08-13-2023, 03:00 PM)PDub80 Wrote: No.

Mike Hired Marvin & Managed the team during Marvin's tenure. When that all finally fell apart it was Mike's last shot at the job of GM/Owner/Operator. Mike then ceded control of the org to Katie and has allowed her to run things. Katie hired Zac Taylor and has been the key piece running the org since Marvin stepped down.

"And if it wasn't for Katie Blackburn offering her support for Lewis rather than Brown's preference of either Tom Coughlin or Mike Mularkey, then we could be in far worse shape."

https://www.cincyjungle.com/2010/10/15/1753443/rehashing-old-topics-bengals-should-capitulate-to-marvin-lewis

"Lewis has emerged as the top pick of Katie Blackburn, the Bengals' executive vice president, according to one of the sources, who is familiar with the NFL's hiring situation. Blackburn is the daughter of Bengals president Mike Brown.

A source within the league said, however, that the Bengals were still committed to interviewing Mularkey, who was one of their original preferences."

https://www.mrt.com/news/article/Sources-Bengals-Eyeing-Marvin-Lewis-7766407.php

(08-13-2023, 10:53 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: now I cant prove it, but I guarantee Marvin Lewis wouldnt have the same success with Burrow that Taylor has had

Every QB played MUCH worse in the playoffs under Marvin Lewis.

Palmer went from franchise QB to barely being able to complete a pass vs the Jets.
Kitna went from Comeback Player of the Year to 2nd half meltdown.
Dalton went from a QB that threw 60 TDs in a 2 year span, to a guy who threw 1 TD in 4 games.
Macaroni went from having a 97.1 passer rating to a 68.3 passer rating.

Burrow wouldn't have won a single playoff game under Marvin.

[Shake n Blake]

(08-13-2023, 05:13 PM)BengalYankee Wrote: Hi Shake,

How are you, friend? I did not say without Burrow ZT would be 2-14 or any below .500 coach.

I did say I did not trust ZT yet and I still don't. I don't think the Bengals team the past two years even gets into the playoffs yet wins the games they did, if ZT does not have Burrow on the squad. 

Reasons why the Bengals got into the playoffs and more were not in any order.

1. Burrow
2. Defense
3. Kicking game via our FG kicker McPherson

Again not in any particular order, however if any of the 3 mentioned above is off we are in trouble. Come to think, I don't ever remember Burrow in a shootout with another team.  That means our defense came to play.

So I liked ML, but his last few years as another member had written he was tired and it was time for a new HC. I wonder how ML would have prevailed with
Burrow as his QB and Katie as his boss?  


 

Doing good! Hopefully you are as well.

You didn't specifically say the Bengals would be a 4 win team, but I was inferring that based on you saying "I think all the glory has to go to Joe Burrow. What is ZT's record without Burrow? Horrible that is what it is."


Taylor's record without Burrow is obviously way worse than just 4-12.

The roster has wildly improved since Taylor didn't have Burrow, so I'd say it's tough to use that as evidence.

It's also tough to compare Marvin and Zac, as they may have used a very similar roster (end of Marvin's tenure and beginning of Zac's), but Zac was using Marvin's players. Players that were better for Marv's vision.

I think if we traded Burrow for an average starter (say Jared Goff or Derek Carr), I think this team is around 8-8 and at least competing for a playoff spot. Those guys would have their play elevated with the best WR corp in the NFL and a top notch defense. I think we sell this roster short. 

Look at it this way. Do you think our roster is better than the 2021 Raiders or 2022 Lions? Well, those were winning teams with those average QB's.

(08-14-2023, 06:16 AM)BengalYankee Wrote: How was Zac's record with Andy Dalton compared to Marvin Lewis's? 

You know this is not fair. Andy Dalton had a way better roster for most of his career with Marvin, and Dalton lost a pinch after a few years of getting pummeled behind bad lines. Not everyone handles sacks like Burrow.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(08-14-2023, 01:41 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Doing good! Hopefully you are as well.

You didn't specifically say the Bengals would be a 4 win team, but I was inferring that based on you saying "I think all the glory has to go to Joe Burrow. What is ZT's record without Burrow? Horrible that is what it is."


Taylor's record without Burrow is obviously way worse than just 4-12.

The roster has wildly improved since Taylor didn't have Burrow, so I'd say it's tough to use that as evidence.

It's also tough to compare Marvin and Zac, as they may have used a very similar roster (end of Marvin's tenure and beginning of Zac's), but Zac was using Marvin's players. Players that were better for Marv's vision.

I think if we traded Burrow for an average starter (say Jared Goff or Derek Carr), I think this team is around 8-8 and at least competing for a playoff spot. Those guys would have their play elevated with the best WR corp in the NFL and a top notch defense. I think we sell this roster short. 

Look at it this way. Do you think our roster is better than the 2021 Raiders or 2022 Lions? Well, those were winning teams with those average QB's.


You know this is not fair. Andy Dalton had a way better roster for most of his career with Marvin, and Dalton lost a pinch after a few years of getting pummeled behind bad lines. Not everyone handles sacks like Burrow.

If Mike Brown hadn’t been a stubborn fool and refused to make the changes the team has made during Katie’s tenure to become competitive they wouldn’t have needed to draft Dalton (or stick with him when it was clear his ceiling was middling NFL starter.)

[PDub80]

(08-14-2023, 01:17 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: It's been said that Katie wanted Marv and Mike wanted Mike Mularky. I want to say that even Mike has said this.

I don't think Katie was "running the team" back then, but she definitely had a lot of sway, even back then.


"And if it wasn't for Katie Blackburn offering her support for Lewis rather than Brown's preference of either Tom Coughlin or Mike Mularkey, then we could be in far worse shape."

https://www.cincyjungle.com/2010/10/15/1753443/rehashing-old-topics-bengals-should-capitulate-to-marvin-lewis

"Lewis has emerged as the top pick of Katie Blackburn, the Bengals' executive vice president, according to one of the sources, who is familiar with the NFL's hiring situation. Blackburn is the daughter of Bengals president Mike Brown.

A source within the league said, however, that the Bengals were still committed to interviewing Mularkey, who was one of their original preferences."

https://www.mrt.com/news/article/Sources-Bengals-Eyeing-Marvin-Lewis-7766407.php



Every QB played MUCH worse in the playoffs under Marvin Lewis.

Palmer went from franchise QB to barely being able to complete a pass vs the Jets.
Kitna went from Comeback Player of the Year to 2nd half meltdown.
Dalton went from a QB that threw 60 TDs in a 2 year span, to a guy who threw 1 TD in 4 games.
Macaroni went from having a 97.1 passer rating to a 68.3 passer rating.

Burrow wouldn't have won a single playoff game under Marvin.

I have no doubts that Katie was involved with big decisions the team made. But she was no doubt just a voice in the room compared to Mike. I think Mike certainly helped bring her in on things like that.

I will also say that Mike doesn't get enough credit for being a good teammate/listener to his coaches and other executives. I could see a scenario where Mike is open to listening to Katie and hiring Marvin. I also know that Marvin & Mike became close friends and Mike has said multiple times that (after Marvin) he more or less let go and allowed Katie & Troy to interview & find the next coach as he was going to turn things over. I just can't see him being hands off in that way in 2003 in his late 60s.

[PDub80]

(08-14-2023, 06:16 AM)BengalYankee Wrote: How was Zac's record with Andy Dalton compared to Marvin Lewis's? 

A lot of unique factors to consider if comparing the 2 coaches in this way.

[Joelist]

We out here probably have no hard proof of exactly when Katie really took the reins. It did seem like she started moving into more of a lead role in things like contract structures during Marvin's tenure. But more or less full control? Maybe that started when Marvin finally left. Zac got the nod and had a freshman season that still today has a whiff of "suck for Burrow" to it.

Once they had Burrow the changes to everything started happening faster, including things like dumping a bad coach (Turner) instead of waiting it out. Overall, this is an almost totally new and different organization from when Marvin was the HC.

[Soonerpeace]

(08-13-2023, 11:43 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Again, can’t name one. Just more unsourced, unverified, vague, nonspecific BS. Shared with you during the early transition before you jumped on the bandwagon?

If you’re, admittedly, not a good source of info about Marvin what makes you a good source of info on his players? Years before you jumped on the bandwagon? Especially since you can’t specify a single player you’re throwing under the bus?

I’m not commenting on what I know I’m commenting on what I’ve been told. I wasn’t told a specific player or if I was I can’t remember for sure.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(08-15-2023, 12:51 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: I’m not commenting on what I know I’m commenting on what I’ve been told. I wasn’t told a specific player or if I was I can’t remember for sure.

Remember when you claimed Zac Taylor has the same problem with his players?

(02-17-2022, 07:07 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: The OL issues are more than talent related. Some I understand just don’t want to play and just collect a check. No names used I’d expect one is Carman.

(02-24-2022, 10:46 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: I don’t know if it’s Carman but there are a few who just want to collect a pay check. I’m hearing.

(02-20-2022, 03:09 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: My understanding from my sources is they’ve decided that a few o-linemen aren’t working as hard as they’d like in order to get better. Satisfied with just getting a check.

Remember when you claimed to know someone with the Bengals?

(03-15-2022, 12:46 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: I know a key person at the Bengals.

Remember when you claimed your Bengals’ source wasn’t actually in the Bengals’ building?

(04-08-2023, 01:10 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Actually someone else incredibly informed but not in the building but still just an opinion but one I’d take over 90% in the building.

Remember when you claimed to know one NFL coach?

(01-09-2022, 11:52 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: I’ve known 3 college OC’s all with NC’s as OC. I know them extremely well. I also know a current NFL coach whose expertise is offense.

Remember two weeks later when you suddenly knew an NFL OC and a NFL HC?

(02-16-2022, 12:26 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: I know a NFL head coach and a NFL OC.

And in less than two seasons you have managed to travel back in time to meet every Oklahoma head coach during the past 50 years.

(08-09-2023, 04:25 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: You guys know I’m a Sooner and I’ve known all the head coaches for 50 years and numerous assistants.

Not to mention your contacts at ESPN.

(02-10-2022, 12:28 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: I know some people at ESPN

Remember what the D1 HC told you about the offensive line?

(02-17-2022, 07:53 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: But… a former All-American QB and champion college OC and then D-1 major head coach once told me that a poor OL or a great OL either render you a great or awful play caller.

Remember when it was a HOF coach?

(02-14-2022, 07:04 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: A major college HOF coach and top ten all time with 3 NC’s told me one time that a poor OL really affects what an OC can do play call wise.

And remember when the HOF HC didn’t tell you and you just eavesdropped in on his cellphone conversation?

(02-20-2022, 07:52 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: When an OL is so poor it’s rough on the play caller. I was in a suite at a big blue blood college football game. This was 2005. They were getting beat and their offense was awful but had in recent years played for several NC’s. I went out in the hall and their former HOF famous head coach who I knew was outside our door talking to another former coach and was on the phone with one of his former Heisman winners. I listened to the conversation. The blue blood had lost 2 OL starters recently and were inexperienced. The coach told his former player oh ______ can’t call squat.He’s lost as every play one of the linemen whiff or miss an assignment. He’s trying to find something that will work or a player he can count on. Same OC the year before that was considered the best in CF couldn’t do squat. Trust me he had one of the all time NFL running backs in the backfield and a future NFL QB ( backup mostly) and solid future Washington Redskins starter at WR. If the OL can’t do squat a play caller is limited.

Point being, you make shit up. Not even an opinion. Objective fact. So don’t tell me about what you’ve been told.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(08-14-2023, 01:17 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: It's been said that Katie wanted Marv and Mike wanted Mike Mularky. I want to say that even Mike has said this.

I don't think Katie was "running the team" back then, but she definitely had a lot of sway, even back then.


"And if it wasn't for Katie Blackburn offering her support for Lewis rather than Brown's preference of either Tom Coughlin or Mike Mularkey, then we could be in far worse shape."

https://www.cincyjungle.com/2010/10/15/1753443/rehashing-old-topics-bengals-should-capitulate-to-marvin-lewis

"Lewis has emerged as the top pick of Katie Blackburn, the Bengals' executive vice president, according to one of the sources, who is familiar with the NFL's hiring situation. Blackburn is the daughter of Bengals president Mike Brown.

A source within the league said, however, that the Bengals were still committed to interviewing Mularkey, who was one of their original preferences."

https://www.mrt.com/news/article/Sources-Bengals-Eyeing-Marvin-Lewis-7766407.php



Every QB played MUCH worse in the playoffs under Marvin Lewis.

Palmer went from franchise QB to barely being able to complete a pass vs the Jets.
Kitna went from Comeback Player of the Year to 2nd half meltdown.
Dalton went from a QB that threw 60 TDs in a 2 year span, to a guy who threw 1 TD in 4 games.
Macaroni went from having a 97.1 passer rating to a 68.3 passer rating.

Burrow wouldn't have won a single playoff game under Marvin.

Didn't Coughlin pass due to not getting the control of the roster decisions he wanted?

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(08-14-2023, 01:41 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Doing good! Hopefully you are as well.

You didn't specifically say the Bengals would be a 4 win team, but I was inferring that based on you saying "I think all the glory has to go to Joe Burrow. What is ZT's record without Burrow? Horrible that is what it is."


Taylor's record without Burrow is obviously way worse than just 4-12.

The roster has wildly improved since Taylor didn't have Burrow, so I'd say it's tough to use that as evidence.

It's also tough to compare Marvin and Zac, as they may have used a very similar roster (end of Marvin's tenure and beginning of Zac's), but Zac was using Marvin's players. Players that were better for Marv's vision.

I think if we traded Burrow for an average starter (say Jared Goff or Derek Carr), I think this team is around 8-8 and at least competing for a playoff spot. Those guys would have their play elevated with the best WR corp in the NFL and a top notch defense. I think we sell this roster short. 

Look at it this way. Do you think our roster is better than the 2021 Raiders or 2022 Lions? Well, those were winning teams with those average QB's.


You know this is not fair. Andy Dalton had a way better roster for most of his career with Marvin, and Dalton lost a pinch after a few years of getting pummeled behind bad lines. Not everyone handles sacks like Burrow.

When he chucked his helmet at the water cooler after getting killed in Shitsburgh, I knew it was over. I'd never seen him mad like that. Eight sacks if I remember right.

[Sled21]

Mediocre Marv was just that, and that's all he ever will be. He brought the team into respectability, but couldn't win in the post season, ever. Mediocre.

[KillerGoose]

It is going to be incredibly difficult to remove a coaches success from the quality of their QB. It is arguably the most important position in all of sports. You look at a guy like Belichick and see that he has barely managed a .500 record since Brady left. Why? Because of poor QB play. It's still impressive that he has done what he has done, but part of that is because we all have faith in Belichick. If you keep the situation the exact same and put a new coach in that position, everyone is going to blame the coach even though it may not necessarily be his fault - it is still the deficiency of QB play.

I think Marv was a fine coach. For most of his career here, he had good rosters (especially the early 2010 run) but mediocre QB play. The two years where he didn't have mediocre QB play, his QBs were knocked out for the season. Pretty rough luck in that regard, but he simply ran his course here. Currently, I think the Bengals have a good coaching staff but having an elite QB can really elevate the appearance of said coaching staff.

[*ochocincos*]

(08-15-2023, 11:20 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: It is going to be incredibly difficult to remove a coaches success from the quality of their QB. It is arguably the most important position in all of sports. You look at a guy like Belichick and see that he has barely managed a .500 record since Brady left. Why? Because of poor QB play. It's still impressive that he has done what he has done, but part of that is because we all have faith in Belichick. If you keep the situation the exact same and put a new coach in that position, everyone is going to blame the coach even though it may not necessarily be his fault - it is still the deficiency of QB play.

I think Marv was a fine coach. For most of his career here, he had good rosters (especially the early 2010 run) but mediocre QB play. The two years where he didn't have mediocre QB play, his QBs were knocked out for the season. Pretty rough luck in that regard, but he simply ran his course here. Currently, I think the Bengals have a good coaching staff but having an elite QB can really elevate the appearance of said coaching staff.

Exactly.
A HC is just like a manager or someone else in a leadership position at another company - your measurement of success is largely based on how the team does, not your individual contributions.

You'll be fairly judged on some of the decisions you make, but some of the outcomes are not in your control. However, you as the person overseeing the team are often held responsible for how well they do regardless.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(08-15-2023, 11:00 AM)WychesWarrior Wrote: Didn't Coughlin pass due to not getting the control of the roster decisions he wanted?

I believe that is correct.

[*ochocincos*]

(08-15-2023, 03:31 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Point being, you make shit up. Not even an opinion. Objective fact. So don’t tell me about what you’ve been told.

I'm gonna give the benefit of the doubt to Sooner here, as it does sound like he talks with someone who he trusts on the inside. That person may just share their opinion and/or it might not actually end up coming to fruition, but that doesn't mean Sooner is just making up information.
Now, is this insider that Sooner knows the most reliable source? Maybe not (anymore) 

[Soonerpeace]

(08-15-2023, 03:31 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Remember when you claimed Zac Taylor has the same problem with his players?




Remember when you claimed to know someone with the Bengals?


Remember when you claimed your Bengals’ source wasn’t actually in the Bengals’ building?


Remember when you claimed to know one NFL coach?


Remember two weeks later when you suddenly knew an NFL OC and a NFL HC?


And in less than two seasons you have managed to travel back in time to meet every Oklahoma head coach during the past 50 years.


Not to mention your contacts at ESPN.



Remember what the D1 HC told you about the offensive line?


Remember when it was a HOF coach?


And remember when the HOF HC didn’t tell you and you just eavesdropped in on his cellphone conversation?




Point being, you make shit up. Not even an opinion. Objective fact. So don’t tell me about what you’ve been told.

All true. I can assure there’s a lot of other places to spend time than and make up stuff. But I’m glad somebody has all the time to try to discredit me. Have at it but you’ll never get that time back in your life.