Jonah Williams Requests Trade

[*ochocincos*]

(04-11-2023, 10:30 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: No, but closer than Jonah, and I think Brown will do much better here with a QB that stays in the Pocket. 
Jonah's problems have been mainly his injuries, no idea if that's due to conditioning or straight up bad luck. 

It's always been my understanding that one big injury doesn't define a career, but multiple injuries tend to snowball and really derail a career.
Jonah's injuries went back to college, and they've snowballed.
As much as I think Jonah can get back to being solid, I don't have high hopes he'll stay healthy for his career moving forward.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-11-2023, 01:58 PM)Joelist Wrote: Right just now we have a ton of OTs on the roster but it won't last. You figure we'll keep two starters and two backups. So that in and of itself means that between Jonah, LC, Ford, Carman, Smith and Adeniji not all are making the roster.

Another thing to consider is which of these OTs actually fit the way the building the line now? LT, LG, C and RG are all maulers. They all are much more power gap than zone types. This indicates to me that two that have an edge on staying are Ford and Carman. If LC shows up 100% and looks back to his pre back problem self he has an edge too. Smith and Adeniji seem disadvantaged here because Adeniji has no ability to anchor or drive and Smith is an injury cypher.

This leaves Jonah. Even in his healthy form power and anchor were not his strongest suits. And he is coming back not just from two dislocated kneecaps but surgery to try and lock one of them down better. It may help, but I really think he is better off on a team using a different line philosophy better suited to his strengths.

Nice post Joelist. I think we need to trade Jonah for whatever, Draft a RT like Darnell Wright and an interior OL in the mid to late rounds
and see how competition sorts itself out. I think both Adeniji and D'Ante don't make the team if this happens. These 3 are more of Wide
Zone OL anyways, need to match the starters who you say, for the most part are Power Gap type OL. 

Especially with the additions of Orlando Brown and Cody Ford this is even more so, I know, I know, we WILL run some wide zone but 
we should mostly run the gap schemes with these players.

[bengals1969]

(04-11-2023, 02:34 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Nice post Joelist. I think we need to trade Jonah for whatever, Draft a RT like Darnell Wright and an interior OL in the mid to late rounds
and see how competition sorts itself out. I think both Adeniji and D'Ante don't make the team if this happens. These 3 are more of Wide
Zone OL anyways, need to match the starters who you say, for the most part are Power Gap type OL. 

Especially with the additions of Orlando Brown and Cody Ford this is even more so, I know, I know, we WILL run some wide zone but 
we should mostly run the gap schemes with these players.

I never noticed Adeniji pass blocking. It was more like he was a tourist.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-11-2023, 03:47 PM)bengals1969 Wrote: I never noticed Adeniji pass blocking. It was more like he was a tourist.

He was okay in the regular season when LC went down, I mean he wasn't terrible in pass pro....

But man, did Adeniji suck big time once again in the Playoffs.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(04-11-2023, 02:17 PM)ochocincos Wrote: It's always been my understanding that one big injury doesn't define a career, but multiple injuries tend to snowball and really derail a career.
Jonah's injuries went back to college, and they've snowballed.
As much as I think Jonah can get back to being solid, I don't have high hopes he'll stay healthy for his career moving forward.

I wish him well to, but at this point in time, too hard to trust him for a full year. 

And the way we ended up with Brown was totally a freakish signing. It's like KC gave him the Bird by signing that RT and moving him to LT.

And Brown gave them the double bird back, now let's hope the RT position stabilizes and Brown just might be getting the last laughs

[*ochocincos*]

(04-11-2023, 06:32 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: I wish him well to, but at this point in time, too hard to trust him for a full year. 

And the way we ended up with Brown was totally a freakish signing. It's like KC gave him the Bird by signing that RT and moving him to LT.

And Brown gave them the double bird back, now let's hope the RT position stabilizes and Brown just might be getting the last laughs

I also wouldn't be opposed to putting Brown back at RT for (part of) this season only and let Jonah and Carman battle it out for LT.
Brown got a good contract and is a Bengal through 2026, so it's not like he needs to show this year that he can handle LT well.
If the best line is Jonah/Carman on the left and Brown on the right instead of the opposite, I say do that.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(04-11-2023, 06:35 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I also wouldn't be opposed to putting Brown back at RT for (part of) this season only and let Jonah and Carman battle it out for LT.
Brown got a good contract and is a Bengal through 2026, so it's not like he needs to show this year that he can handle LT well.
If the best line is Jonah/Carman on the left and Brown on the right instead of the opposite, I say do that.

Understood, that'd likely be a better option than trying to get Jonah/Carman on the Right, but Brown is a 2x PB on the left. And he signed with the knowledge that the Bengals would play him at LT, not RT and we all know the Bengals are pretty good at keeping their word.

[Frank Booth]

(04-11-2023, 06:42 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Understood, that'd likely be a better option than trying to get Jonah/Carman on the Right, but Brown is a 2x PB on the left. And he signed with the knowledge that the Bengals would play him at LT, not RT and we all know the Bengals are pretty good at keeping their word.

people have discussed this before, but pro bowls are a joke. Brown is good, but everyone knows it's a popularity contest. He has name recognition and played for mvp Lamar and Mahomes

Whitworth only made the pro bowl twice his entire tenure with cincy, and he's a hall of fame talent

[Bengalholic]

(04-11-2023, 06:35 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I also wouldn't be opposed to putting Brown back at RT for (part of) this season only and let Jonah and Carman battle it out for LT.
Brown got a good contract and is a Bengal through 2026, so it's not like he needs to show this year that he can handle LT well.
If the best line is Jonah/Carman on the left and Brown on the right instead of the opposite, I say do that.

Orlando has been extremely bullish about only playing LT, and they signed him knowing that.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(04-11-2023, 06:45 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: people have discussed this before, but pro bowls are a joke. Brown is good, but everyone knows it's a popularity contest. He has name recognition and played for mvp Lamar and Mahomes

Whitworth only made the pro bowl twice his entire tenure with cincy, and he's a hall of fame talent

And next up is MVP Burrow. We couldn't get over that popularity hump when Whit was here. Not really an issue with Burrow/Chase/Tee here.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-11-2023, 06:46 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Orlando has been extremely bullish about only playing LT, and they signed him knowing that.

Yes, we aren't moving Orlando to RT, not happening.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-11-2023, 06:32 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: I wish him well to, but at this point in time, too hard to trust him for a full year. 

And the way we ended up with Brown was totally a freakish signing. It's like KC gave him the Bird by signing that RT and moving him to LT.

And Brown gave them the double bird back, now let's hope the RT position stabilizes and Brown just might be getting the last laughs

Should be a fun rivalry for years to come, just got a little more salty with the Orlando Brown addition lol

[*ochocincos*]

(04-11-2023, 04:25 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: He was okay in the regular season when LC went down, I mean he wasn't terrible in pass pro....

But man, did Adeniji suck big time once again in the Playoffs.

Collins went down in the NE game.
In the rest of that game and the last game of the regular season, Adeniji allowed 7 total pressures, which is terrible.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-11-2023, 07:26 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Collins went down in the NE game.
In the rest of that game and the last game of the regular season, Adeniji allowed 7 total pressures, which is terrible.

Wow, didn't know that. I stand corrected.

[*ochocincos*]

(04-11-2023, 07:50 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Wow, didn't know that. I stand corrected.

I didn't really notice it either back during the game, but they were hurries, not hits or sacks. I would imagine there could be some debate for how close does someone have to be to be considered a hurry vs not.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-11-2023, 09:56 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I didn't really notice it either back during the game, but they were hurries, not hits or sacks. I would imagine there could be some debate for how close does someone have to be to be considered a hurry vs not.

Going to go back and watch the entire season after the Draft when I am getting ancy and want to watch the NFL. 

I will look at the OL big time and specifically Adeniji late and in the Playoffs. I noticed his bad play in the Playoffs.

[bengaloo]

(04-10-2023, 04:32 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: I want to bring up some logic for you to try and refute, but you'll prob just ignore them and rely on your feelings. But I'll try and talk with you...

Explain how a league average starting LT will lose to a completely banged up Collins(who wasnt good at RT anyways in 2022 when he had less health problems), 

and explain how he will lose to Carmen, despite Carmen being bad his whole tenure except for the buffalo game

go ahead and explain without your feelings

If he loses out to those guys it's mostly because he lacks the strength and arm reach that Carman and Collins have. Collins has already played at a higher level than Jonah when healthy, and I wouldnt expect Collins to beat Jonah out until he is fully healthy later into the season, but I think he is a better OT when fully healthy. As far as Carman goes, I just think he's much stronger than Jonah with more upside, and if he dedicates himself, I think he could not only beat out Jonah but be the RT of the future. He was a very good LT in college and not every OT converts to OG well. His core strength is much better than Jonah. He wont get pushed into the backfield nearly as much and he's a mauler in the run game. 

[Frank Booth]

(04-11-2023, 10:25 PM)bengaloo Wrote: If he loses out to those guys it's mostly because he lacks the strength and arm reach that Carman and Collins have. Collins has already played at a higher level than Jonah when healthy, and I wouldnt expect Collins to beat Jonah out until he is fully healthy later into the season, but I think he is a better OT when fully healthy. As far as Carman goes, I just think he's much stronger than Jonah with more upside, and if he dedicates himself, I think he could not only beat out Jonah but be the RT of the future. He was a very good LT in college and not every OT converts to OG well. His core strength is much better than Jonah. He wont get pushed into the backfield nearly as much and he's a mauler in the run game. 

There is no completely healthy LC. Yea he tore his acl, but he was already a shell of himself due to all his health problems even during the beginning of 2022. Cowboys knew, thats why they released him

When it comes to Carmen, it's hope and a prayer that he develops a better work ethic. 

and core strength isnt the end all be all trait needed to be a tackle. Plenty of tackles with great strength who cant move

[SunsetBengal]

(04-11-2023, 12:05 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: I never mentioned Brown’s health. That is why he is an upgrade. Never said any different. Simply just saying that Jonah nor Brown are elite tackles

If the man is an upgrade at the position, then why knock on him by adding in "who also isn't elite"?  Some people like to throw cold water on anything that the team does, maybe you're one of those people? 

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

(04-12-2023, 12:16 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: If the man is an upgrade at the position, then why knock on him by adding in "who also isn't elite"?  Some people like to throw cold water on anything that the team does, maybe you're one of those people? 

Over the last 10-11 weeks of the season, and the post-season, I'd argue Brown was close to, if not, elite. At least in terms of pass protection. And, if he does get beat, you know where the problem is gonna be and can scheme for it.