March Mock

[*ochocincos*]

(03-30-2023, 11:59 AM)Whatever Wrote: Scott's contract is structured so he can be released next year at a cap savings.  If he had gotten a significant chunk of his deal as guaranteed money, I'd agree, but his deal has easy outs if the Bengals find an upgrade.

Taylor was 20th in the league in PR average and we were 27th as a club in KR average amongst multiple returners.  The return game is a big weakness right now.  For a team with SB aspirations, it needs to be addressed.  Look at how big returns set up the GW scores in the AFCCG and the SB.  

Johnson has good hands, but will be overmatched by the NFL LB's DC's will use to cover him.  He's a guy that will reliably catch that swing pass just to get dropped for no gain.  

Well I'm sorry dude, but the Bengals only currently have 1 pick in each round.
I feel CB, TE, RB, and RT are higher priority than a safety to compete with Scott for this year.
If they pick up some extra picks, then I can see that happening.

I get the sentiment with Taylor, which is why I proposed Remigio in Rd 7. When I made the mock, Irv Smith wasn't signed, so I could be ok going Remigio in Rd 7 instead of Sims.

You seem to have a much lower evaluation on Johnson than I do. While you won't change my mind on Johnson, who would you propose instead that can pass block, catch, and run that will confidently be there on Day 3?

[*Synric*]

(03-30-2023, 12:59 PM)ochocincos Wrote: You seem to have a much lower evaluation on Johnson than I do. While you won't change my mind on Johnson, who would you propose instead that can pass block, catch, and run that will confidently be there on Day 3?

Camerun Peoples gives you nearly the exact same skill set as Johnson less explosive but probably a little better lateral movement. Both scream special teams and maybe a rotational pass blocker as a running back with upside as a hammer.

[*ochocincos*]

(03-30-2023, 01:41 PM)Synric Wrote: Camerun Peoples gives you nearly the exact same skill set as Johnson less explosive but probably a little better lateral movement. Both scream special teams and maybe a rotational pass blocker as a running back with upside as a hammer.

I looked some into Peoples but I got turned away when I saw he was hardly ever used on passing downs.

[Whatever]

(03-30-2023, 12:59 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Well I'm sorry dude, but the Bengals only currently have 1 pick in each round.
I feel CB, TE, RB, and RT are higher priority than a safety to compete with Scott for this year.
If they pick up some extra picks, then I can see that happening.

I get the sentiment with Taylor, which is why I proposed Remigio in Rd 7. When I made the mock, Irv Smith wasn't signed, so I could be ok going Remigio in Rd 7 instead of Sims.

You seem to have a much lower evaluation on Johnson than I do. While you won't change my mind on Johnson, who would you propose instead that can pass block, catch, and run that will confidently be there on Day 3?

Personally, S is a bigger need than CB.  At S, we need a potential starter.  At CB, we need depth/guy to groom.  However, there's unlikely to be a S worth the 28th pick available.  You can also argue that you can get by with mediocre S's if you have standout corners.

RT isn't a need at this point.  If a RT is the BPA and you're convinced he has a reasonable chance to start, then I get it, but a mid round T isn't going to play this year in all likelihood.  We've got 7-8 T's already on the roster, depending on what we count Ford as.  A mid round RT is going to be Plan D, at best.  I wouldn't take a Plan D over a Plan A or B.

I would take Eric Gray over Johnson, but being realistic, if you're removing RB's from consideration if they aren't good pass blockers coming out, you're removing 80-90% of any given class.  The remaining 10-20% generally don't give you enough as a runner or a receiver because of athletic limitations.  Most RB's have to learn pass pro when they come in.

[*ochocincos*]

(03-30-2023, 04:13 PM)Whatever Wrote: Personally, S is a bigger need than CB.  At S, we need a potential starter.  At CB, we need depth/guy to groom.  However, there's unlikely to be a S worth the 28th pick available.  You can also argue that you can get by with mediocre S's if you have standout corners.

RT isn't a need at this point.  If a RT is the BPA and you're convinced he has a reasonable chance to start, then I get it, but a mid round T isn't going to play this year in all likelihood.  We've got 7-8 T's already on the roster, depending on what we count Ford as.  A mid round RT is going to be Plan D, at best.  I wouldn't take a Plan D over a Plan A or B.

I would take Eric Gray over Johnson, but being realistic, if you're removing RB's from consideration if they aren't good pass blockers coming out, you're removing 80-90% of any given class.  The remaining 10-20% generally don't give you enough as a runner or a receiver because of athletic limitations.  Most RB's have to learn pass pro when they come in.

You're gambling on Awuzie being ready by Game 1 and/or hoping Sidney Jones can fill in. Personally, I don't care much for Jones.
Also, Awuzie is entering the final year of his contract and the team might want to have someone groomed for a year before taking over for him.

Why are you so down on Nick Scott at safety?
Or are you more worried about Dax Hill?
If it's Hill, I'd say give the guy a chance before looking to invest another super early pick on yet another safety.

As for RBs with pass protection...Mixon can't pass block, and they clearly showed the past two years they value someone like Perine because of his pass blocking.
If the Bengals can't find a FA who can pass block to bring in to cover that duty, I would expect they'll look for a draft pick who can.
I get that those guys usually aren't as dynamic, but it seems like the staff wants someone who can do it.

[Whatever]

(03-30-2023, 04:29 PM)ochocincos Wrote: You're gambling on Awuzie being ready by Game 1 and/or hoping Sidney Jones can fill in. Personally, I don't care much for Jones.
Also, Awuzie is entering the final year of his contract and the team might want to have someone groomed for a year before taking over for him.

Why are you so down on Nick Scott at safety?
Or are you more worried about Dax Hill?
If it's Hill, I'd say give the guy a chance before looking to invest another super early pick on yet another safety.

As for RBs with pass protection...Mixon can't pass block, and they clearly showed the past two years they value someone like Perine because of his pass blocking.
If the Bengals can't find a FA who can pass block to bring in to cover that duty, I would expect they'll look for a draft pick who can.
I get that those guys usually aren't as dynamic, but it seems like the staff wants someone who can do it.

As a need, I think S is bigger r.  However, value has to play into the equation and this is a loaded CB class.  Given that CB is also a need, I have zero issues taking one early, especially when they're the bpa.  

Scott is 27 and has one year as a replacement level starter. Last year, he was roasted for over 600 receiving yards and a 118.5 Passer rating allowed when targeted per Pro Football Reference to go with 10 missed tackles.   He's the equivalent of a Bobby Hart type signing.  I am just not comfortable handing him a starting job without competition.  He is by every estimation the weakest starter penciled into the lineup right now.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-30-2023, 05:33 PM)Whatever Wrote: As a need, I think S is bigger r.  However, value has to play into the equation and this is a loaded CB class.  Given that CB is also a need, I have zero issues taking one early, especially when they're the bpa.  

Scott is 27 and has one year as a replacement level starter. Last year, he was roasted for over 600 receiving yards and a 118.5 Passer rating allowed when targeted per Pro Football Reference to go with 10 missed tackles.   He's the equivalent of a Bobby Hart type signing.  I am just not comfortable handing him a starting job without competition.  He is by every estimation the weakest starter penciled into the lineup right now.

Crazy talk. Corner is by far the bigger need in the Secondary. We don't know if our starter will even be ready come the opener.

Brick Scott played well for having a free lance Corner in Jalen Ramsey switching his coverages on the fly. Scott is smart, is a big hitter
and is faster than Vonn Bell. Dax Hill could be a great Safety in the NFL, Tycen Anderson is big, fast, tackles well and Michael Thomas 
is a solid veteran. We have CTB, Sidney Jones and Jalen Davis healthy right now as boundary corners. Hilton is a pure slot Corner.

Chido is coming off a torn ACL etc.

Lou got the Safety he wanted and I trust his call on the matter.

[*ochocincos*]

(03-30-2023, 05:33 PM)Whatever Wrote: As a need, I think S is bigger r.  However, value has to play into the equation and this is a loaded CB class.  Given that CB is also a need, I have zero issues taking one early, especially when they're the bpa.  

Scott is 27 and has one year as a replacement level starter. Last year, he was roasted for over 600 receiving yards and a 118.5 Passer rating allowed when targeted per Pro Football Reference to go with 10 missed tackles.   He's the equivalent of a Bobby Hart type signing.  I am just not comfortable handing him a starting job without competition.  He is by every estimation the weakest starter penciled into the lineup right now.

I think with Nick Scott, he's more of a traditional box SS and less of a coverage safety.
I think if the team wanted more of a coverage guy, they would have gotten someone like Taylor Rapp or John Johnson (who is still available).
I'm not saying I agree with the decision (in fact I never had Scott on my radar for safeties to replace Bell with), but it might be a reality that we have to deal with.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-30-2023, 06:46 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I think with Nick Scott, he's more of a traditional box SS and less of a coverage safety.
I think if the team wanted more of a coverage guy, they would have gotten someone like Taylor Rapp or John Johnson (who is still available).
I'm not saying I agree with the decision (in fact I never had Scott on my radar for safeties to replace Bell with), but it might be a reality that we have to deal with.

Dax Hill can cover and I trust Lou on his decision of Nick Scott over Rapp or Johnson.

[*ochocincos*]

(03-30-2023, 06:25 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Crazy talk. Corner is by far the bigger need in the Secondary. We don't know if our starter will even be ready come the opener.

Brick Scott played well for having a free lance Corner in Jalen Ramsey switching his coverages on the fly. Scott is smart, is a big hitter
and is faster than Vonn Bell. Dax Hill could be a great Safety in the NFL, Tycen Anderson is big, fast, tackles well and Michael Thomas 
is a solid veteran. We have CTB and Jalen Davis healthy right now as boundary corners. Hilton is a pure slot Corner. Chido is coming 
off a torn ACL etc.

Lou got the Safety he wanted and I trust his call on the matter.

Sidney Jones was added to the CB stable too, but he's been a backup pretty much his whole career.
I don't have any confidence he could cover Awuzie's responsibilities adequately if Awuzie has to be out.
Jones essentially takes over as the CB5 in my eyes. If he's ultimately the CB4, I'm gonna be nervous until I can see Jones in action in stripes.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-30-2023, 06:52 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Sidney Jones was added to the CB stable too, but he's been a backup pretty much his whole career.
I don't have any confidence he could cover the Awuzie's responsibilities adequately if Awuzie has to be out.
Jones essentially takes over as the CB5 in my eyes. If he's ultimately the CB4, I'm gonna be nervous until I can see Jones in action in stripes.

I kind of left Sidney out because he is always injured. Good player though when healthy, he just hardly ever is.

New addition that I forgot about for a second, will edit. Thanks Ocho.

[Whatever]

(03-30-2023, 06:52 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Sidney Jones was added to the CB stable too, but he's been a backup pretty much his whole career.
I don't have any confidence he could cover Awuzie's responsibilities adequately if Awuzie has to be out.
Jones essentially takes over as the CB5 in my eyes. If he's ultimately the CB4, I'm gonna be nervous until I can see Jones in action in stripes.

Jones had a 79.2 Passer Rating When Targeted last year and 84.3 the year before when he started 11 games.  By comparison, CTB allowed a 102.9 Passer Rating When Targeted last year.  Ability isn't Jones' issue.  It's availability.  

[pulses]

(03-30-2023, 12:59 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Well I'm sorry dude, but the Bengals only currently have 1 pick in each round.
I feel CB, TE, RB, and RT are higher priority than a safety to compete with Scott for this year.
If they pick up some extra picks, then I can see that happening.

I get the sentiment with Taylor, which is why I proposed Remigio in Rd 7. When I made the mock, Irv Smith wasn't signed, so I could be ok going Remigio in Rd 7 instead of Sims.

You seem to have a much lower evaluation on Johnson than I do. While you won't change my mind on Johnson, who would you propose instead that can pass block, catch, and run that will confidently be there on Day 3?

I could see them interested in a safety like Sydney Brown in the 3rd. 5 years of solid production in the Big 10.

[*ochocincos*]

(03-31-2023, 12:23 AM)Whatever Wrote: Jones had a 79.2 Passer Rating When Targeted last year and 84.3 the year before when he started 11 games.  By comparison, CTB allowed a 102.9 Passer Rating When Targeted last year.  Ability isn't Jones' issue.  It's availability.  

PFF has the following for Sidney Jones' passer rating allowed by year:
2022 - 83.3 (only 71 coverage snaps)
2021 - 106 (447 coverage snaps)


So the year he played the most, he allowed over 100 passer rating.

But my biggest problem is he can't be relied on because he's never healthy.
Never had more than 6 starts other than 2021, which was just 11.


But regardless of what I think about Sidney Jones, Jones and Awuzie are set to hit FA next year, so the Bengals could be in a big need for a starting CB after this season. Bengals have shown no qualms about getting a guy one year early to learn for a year before taking over, a la Dax Hill.

I understand why you want a safety over a CB.
You feel the starting SS (or safeties) is weak and you want to try to upgrade the starter.
And you feel starting CBs are fine between Awuzie, CTB, Hilton, and Jones.
So you'd rather take a safety in the first couple rounds and take a CB later.
But what I feel is that they believe they have safety set now with the Scott acquisition (whether we agree or not), and they like to plan a year ahead of time for departures, so I think they'll go CB before they go safety.

[Whatever]

(03-31-2023, 01:35 AM)pulses Wrote: I could see them interested in a safety like Sydney Brown in the 3rd. 5 years of solid production in the Big 10.

I do like Brown as a prospect.  He misses tackles, but he does have range, ball skills, and a lot of playing experience.

[*ochocincos*]

(03-31-2023, 01:35 AM)pulses Wrote: I could see them interested in a safety like Sydney Brown in the 3rd. 5 years of solid production in the Big 10.

They might.
We don't ultimately know for sure how they feel about the safety room, but I would assume they feel fine with it with the addition of Scott and re-signing of Thomas.
They had plenty of opportunity to sign quite a few different safeties, and there are still some out there who can be picked up to bolster the group further, but they haven't done so. 
And I don't see them investing a 3rd draft pick at that position after drafting two safeties just last year. They seem to want a blend of veteran experience mixed with youthful talent.
Heck, if anything, it's possible they consider Anderson the heir to Scott after he continues his development another year or two.

[pulses]

(03-31-2023, 09:57 AM)ochocincos Wrote: They might.
We don't ultimately know for sure how they feel about the safety room, but I would assume they feel fine with it with the addition of Scott and re-signing of Thomas.
They had plenty of opportunity to sign quite a few different safeties, and there are still some out there who can be picked up to bolster the group further, but they haven't done so. 
And I don't see them investing a 3rd draft pick at that position after drafting two safeties just last year. They seem to want a blend of veteran experience mixed with youthful talent.
Heck, if anything, it's possible they consider Anderson the heir to Scott after he continues his development another year or two.

Scott can be gone after 1 year and not cost hardly anything....if Anderson develops this year I could see that happening. Yes they resigned Thomas but he mainly plays ST's.

[*ochocincos*]

(03-31-2023, 04:49 PM)pulses Wrote: Scott can be gone after 1 year and not cost hardly anything....if Anderson develops this year I could see that happening. Yes they resigned Thomas but he mainly plays ST's.

Is there an assumption that this is going to happen?
I feel like if the Bengals just wanted him to be a stopgap, they wouldn't have signed him to a 3-year deal.
Sure, he doesn't have much dead cap, but he only frees up $2.3 mill next year if let go.
If the team were to move on from him, I think it would be 2025 when he would free up $4.3 mill.

[pulses]

(03-31-2023, 05:30 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Is there an assumption that this is going to happen?
I feel like if the Bengals just wanted him to be a stopgap, they wouldn't have signed him to a 3-year deal.
Sure, he doesn't have much dead cap, but he only frees up $2.3 mill next year if let go.
If the team were to move on from him, I think it would be 2025 when he would free up $4.3 mill.

Not an assumption but it is not out of the question either depending on what might happen.

[SunsetBengal]

(03-30-2023, 05:33 PM)Whatever Wrote: As a need, I think S is bigger r.  However, value has to play into the equation and this is a loaded CB class.  Given that CB is also a need, I have zero issues taking one early, especially when they're the bpa.  

Scott is 27 and has one year as a replacement level starter. Last year, he was roasted for over 600 receiving yards and a 118.5 Passer rating allowed when targeted per Pro Football Reference to go with 10 missed tackles.   He's the equivalent of a Bobby Hart type signing.  I am just not comfortable handing him a starting job without competition.  He is by every estimation the weakest starter penciled into the lineup right now.

I tend to agree with Ocho and Nate that Safety has already been addressed for 2023, and it's going to be Scott and Hill starting with Anderson and Thomas backing them up.  If a prospect they love happens to fall in the draft, they may snatch him up in the mid-late rounds, just to keep the cupboard stocked.  The real need in the secondary is at CB.