First three pics - roster shaping

[Mgbrown66]

If I was a betting man I would bet that the bengals are going to sign Higgins to an extension. They are drafting defense so they can spend future dollars on what is already on the roster.

[THE PISTONS]

They have said they plan to keep Higgins.

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-28-2023, 11:59 PM)Mgbrown66 Wrote: If I was a betting man I would bet that the bengals are going to sign Higgins to an extension.    They are drafting defense so they can spend future dollars on what is already on the roster.

Agreed.  He is the PERFECT complement to Chase, has insane high-point ability, and is a high-character guy.  

People will scream that YOU CANT HAVE THAT MUCH MONEY IN THREE PLAYERS.  Sure you can.   Most teams in the NFL will be the same way.  Now, most teams won't have all three on offense, and maybe not two in the same position, but most teams will have three players taking up $100 million of their cap.

Ravens:  Lamar, Roquan Smith, Ronnie Staley:  $94 million (Note:  they also have $20 million per tied up in Humphry)

Browns:  Watson, Garrett, Ward:  $91 million (Note:  Also paying $20 million per to Amari Cooper)

steelers:  Watt, Fitzpatrick, Johnson:  $65 million (Have a QB on a rookie deal).

Around the NFL teams that have had recent success:

Chiefs:  Mahomes, Jones, Taylor:  $85 million  (Note:  Mahomes at $45 million per now seems like a steal)

Rams:  Stafford, Donald, Cupp:  $95 million

Eagles:  Hurts, Brown, Johnson:  $95 Million

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(04-29-2023, 10:02 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Agreed.  He is the PERFECT complement to Chase, has insane high-point ability, and is a high-character guy.  

People will scream that YOU CANT HAVE THAT MUCH MONEY IN THREE PLAYERS.  Sure you can.   Most teams in the NFL will be the same way.  Now, most teams won't have all three on offense, and maybe not two in the same position, but most teams will have three players taking up $100 million of their cap.

Ravens:  Lamar, Roquan Smith, Ronnie Staley:  $94 million (Note:  they also have $20 million per tied up in Humphry)

Browns:  Watson, Garrett, Ward:  $91 million (Note:  Also paying $20 million per to Amari Cooper)

steelers:  Watt, Fitzpatrick, Johnson:  $65 million (Have a QB on a rookie deal).

Around the NFL teams that have had recent success:

Chiefs:  Mahomes, Jones, Taylor:  $85 million  (Note:  Mahomes at $45 million per now seems like a steal)

Rams:  Stafford, Donald, Cupp:  $95 million

Eagles:  Hurts, Brown, Johnson:  $95 Million

That right there is the most important part. #2 WR shouldn't be replacing an OT or DL in that equation. You can pay 1 weapon because you always need 1 dominate one, but then you pay the QB that huge contract because you expect them to perform with other guys on rookie deals or bargain FA deals.

We somehow went from "Burrow will elevate bad WRs to good and good WRs to great" to "Burrow needs 2 of the 10 highest paid WRs in the NFL" in a span of just a couple years. Mahomes just won the SB with, yes Kelce, but his WRs were Juju, Valdes-Scantling, and Justin Watson. Absolutely keep investing good draft picks in getting new weapons, but you need to be able to move on them when it's time.

- - - - -
As a side note for Mahomes, predictably the Chiefs are already looking at giving him more money after Burrow and Herbert get their extensions. It won't be $45m/yr soon anymore.

[bengals67]

KC let Hill go and then won the Super Bowl.

[Soonerpeace]

(04-29-2023, 10:39 AM)bengals67 Wrote: KC let Hill go and then won the Super Bowl.

And they barely escaped us. They didn’t the first game. Everybody salivating over their recipe don’t realize obviously that all 8 of their 2022 draftees contributed. KC hit on previous drafts as well with Humphrey and Smith in the OL. We’ve failed in the OL area. We’ve made it to the AFC Championship two straight years with awful OL play. We own a 4-1 record the last 2 years vs the Bills & KC. Fix the OL and the KC fans will be screaming for our recipe of two top 10 receivers.

[Bengalstripes9]

It's bad business to let pro-bowl caliber draft picks walk.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(04-29-2023, 10:36 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: That right there is the most important part. #2 WR shouldn't be replacing an OT or DL in that equation. You can pay 1 weapon because you always need 1 dominate one, but then you pay the QB that huge contract because you expect them to perform with other guys on rookie deals or bargain FA deals.

We somehow went from "Burrow will elevate bad WRs to good and good WRs to great" to "Burrow needs 2 of the 10 highest paid WRs in the NFL" in a span of just a couple years. Mahomes just won the SB with, yes Kelce, but his WRs were Juju, Valdes-Scantling, and Justin Watson. Absolutely keep investing good draft picks in getting new weapons, but you need to be able to move on them when it's time.

- - - - -
As a side note for Mahomes, predictably the Chiefs are already looking at giving him more money after Burrow and Herbert get their extensions. It won't be $45m/yr soon anymore.

They're trying to get talented and young/cheap at premier positions on defense to offset the cost of the offense. You're paying Orlando Brown, Karras, Cappa, Williams, and Collins on the oline. I could be wrong, but I bet we start seeing upper round picks on oline maybe as early as next year. They're killing two birds with one stone on defense. They're adding cheap, quality depth for 2023, and potential replacements when guys like Hendrickson and Hubbard come due. And they're doing it with guys of high character and smarts. It's the Patriot way without Belichick's boot camp. (kinda....I mean, I'm certainly not calling them a Patriot team, but the strategy looks smart, and the FO/staff is actually resembling a real NFL franchise. And Joe Burrow).

[BenZoo2]

(04-29-2023, 12:21 PM)WychesWarrior Wrote: They're trying to get talented and young/cheap at premier positions on defense to offset the cost of the offense. You're paying Orlando Brown, Karras, Cappa, Williams, and Collins on the oline. I could be wrong, but I bet we start seeing upper round picks on oline maybe as early as next year. They're killing two birds with one stone on defense. They're adding cheap, quality depth for 2023, and potential replacements when guys like Hendrickson and Hubbard come due. And they're doing it with guys of high character and smarts. It's the Patriot way without Belichick's boot camp. (kinda....I mean, I'm certainly not calling them a Patriot team, but the strategy looks smart, and the FO/staff is actually resembling a real NFL franchise. And Joe Burrow).

This certainly seems to be the strategy. And it’s working. Giddy up!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(04-29-2023, 12:21 PM)Wyche Wrote: They're trying to get talented and young/cheap at premier positions on defense to offset the cost of the offense. You're paying Orlando Brown, Karras, Cappa, Williams, and Collins on the oline. I could be wrong, but I bet we start seeing upper round picks on oline maybe as early as next year. They're killing two birds with one stone on defense. They're adding cheap, quality depth for 2023, and potential replacements when guys like Hendrickson and Hubbard come due. And they're doing it with guys of high character and smarts. It's the Patriot way without Belichick's boot camp. (kinda....I mean, I'm certainly not calling them a Patriot team, but the strategy looks smart, and the FO/staff is actually resembling a real NFL franchise. And Joe Burrow).

Interesting thing to note. Of the 6 SBs the Patriots won, they only had a 1k WR in 2 of them. Troy Brown in 2001 and Julian Edelman in 2016 (Gronk missed half the season). Even if you add Gronk into the equation, they still only had a 1k pass catcher in 3 of the 6, and never 2 in 1 year. They only really spent on OL on the offense when they won SBs and trusted their QB to make do with 1 good weapon and a collection of low cost okay weapons.

It actually seems like the Chiefs are going the Patriot way, while the Bengals are looking at going the Colts way.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(04-29-2023, 12:51 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Interesting thing to note. Of the 6 SBs the Patriots won, they only had a 1k WR in 2 of them. Troy Brown in 2001 and Julian Edelman in 2016 (Gronk missed half the season). Even if you add Gronk into the equation, they still only had a 1k pass catcher in 3 of the 6, and never 2 in 1 year. They only really spent on OL on the offense when they won SBs and trusted their QB to make do with 1 good weapon and a collection of low cost okay weapons.

It actually seems like the Chiefs are going the Patriot way, while the Bengals are looking at going the Colts way.

Yeah, it's more about the type of player when I say that. Team captains, mostly winning programs, football smarts abound, with good work ethic. The Bengals have spent on the offensive line, it fell apart last year down the stretch, but the money was spent. Gronkowski was their Chase, contested catches and down the field. Obviously not the same athlete, but the same role. Then Gronk goes to Tampa. Higgins will be the complement. They won't spend on TE and likely the slot. Chase and Higgins are deadly down the field. Burrow throws in some tight windows that good high point and back shoulder capabilities favor. They make catches that a lot of guys simply can't physically do. 

[Soonerpeace]

(04-29-2023, 12:21 PM)WychesWarrior Wrote: They're trying to get talented and young/cheap at premier positions on defense to offset the cost of the offense. You're paying Orlando Brown, Karras, Cappa, Williams, and Collins on the oline. I could be wrong, but I bet we start seeing upper round picks on oline maybe as early as next year. They're killing two birds with one stone on defense. They're adding cheap, quality depth for 2023, and potential replacements when guys like Hendrickson and Hubbard come due. And they're doing it with guys of high character and smarts. It's the Patriot way without Belichick's boot camp. (kinda....I mean, I'm certainly not calling them a Patriot team, but the strategy looks smart, and the FO/staff is actually resembling a real NFL franchise. And Joe Burrow).

I like their long term strategy. Maybe long term is the wrong term but short term it’s certainly not either. And the focus is making it work to keep Tee,Chase, and Joe.

[SunsetBengal]

(04-29-2023, 02:43 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: I like their long term strategy. Maybe long term is the wrong term but short term it’s certainly not either. And the focus is making it work to keep Tee,Chase, and Joe.

I posted this in another thread, but I feel like you might enjoy reading it here.

Quote:I had a conversation with a lifelong friend, who just happens to be a Steelers fan. He grew up in Eastern PA, and we met as teammates on a Semi-Pro football team. Smart guy (mechanical engineer), played college football and would likely be one heck of a coach. Anyway, we were talking about the draft, and he said that the Bengals are killing it, and stocking themselves to be good for a long time.


I agreed, and mentioned to him that not all Bengal fans are expressing joy with the draft product so far. He chuckled and said "You've got a good team now, when you've already got a good roster that can contend for the title, you draft to maintain that level.". And it would appear that the Bengals are doing just that, drafting to promote from within, rather than paying expensive second and third contracts to excellent and expensive players. If you want to retain your franchise QB, along with his two preferred weapons, you've got to get cheaper in other position groups on the team.

Not every fan would agree with that school of thought, in fact, even I was a bit questioning when free agency started. I went to bed kicking and screaming over the loss of Bates and Bell at the beginning of free agency. Now, after watching them draft Hill and Anderson last year and sign Scott in this free agency, then go onto continue to bolster the DB room with the addition of DJ Turner and Jordan Battle, I'm seeing the bigger picture. Our coaches and management definitely have a plan, a plan that I'm definitely buying into and becoming a fan of.

So, with all of that said, Yes the Bengals are not only drafting to win now, but win for a sustained length of time. In Duke and Zac, I trust!

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-29-2023, 10:36 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: That right there is the most important part. #2 WR shouldn't be replacing an OT or DL in that equation. You can pay 1 weapon because you always need 1 dominate one, but then you pay the QB that huge contract because you expect them to perform with other guys on rookie deals or bargain FA deals.

We somehow went from "Burrow will elevate bad WRs to good and good WRs to great" to "Burrow needs 2 of the 10 highest paid WRs in the NFL" in a span of just a couple years. Mahomes just won the SB with, yes Kelce, but his WRs were Juju, Valdes-Scantling, and Justin Watson. Absolutely keep investing good draft picks in getting new weapons, but you need to be able to move on them when it's time.

- - - - -
As a side note for Mahomes, predictably the Chiefs are already looking at giving him more money after Burrow and Herbert get their extensions. It won't be $45m/yr soon anymore.

I disagree.  Here is why:  Higgins isn't a #2 WR.  He is a #1.  A top 10 WR in the league.  That combination of him and Chase allows the offense to go cheaper on places like TE, and, hopefully, RB.  They made some great, affordable acquisitions on the offensive line (Karras, Cappa, Collins) and made one big move with Brown.

I just believe in this scoring league that favors offenses, having Tee and Ja'Marr together makes the Bengals unique.  The statement about making WRs better may be true (and TEs) but without enough time to throw, having those two  weapons helps Joe tremendously.  

Now that Burrow will have more time to throw, they could be absolutely lethal.  

[Mgbrown66]

They drafted Boyd’s replacement. Notice they haven’t drafted Tee’s replacement? The bengals draft replacements a year early for those they are willing to replace.

Their draft speaks volumes.

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-29-2023, 10:39 AM)bengals67 Wrote: KC let Hill go and then won the Super Bowl.

KC also had a line that gave Mahomes 1.5 more seconds to throw each snap compared to Burrow.  If Joe had that kind of time, you could put Irwin, Taylor and Stanley Morgan and he would still tear it up.  Hoping we took a big step this year.  

[Soonerpeace]

(04-29-2023, 03:33 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: KC also had a line that gave Mahomes 1.5 more seconds to throw each snap compared to Burrow.  If Joe had that kind of time, you could put Irwin, Taylor and Stanley Morgan and he would still tear it up.  Hoping we took a big step this year.  

Amazing that that’s the real story. Was commenting on this earlier today with all the KC constant worship and their idyllic formula. It’s their draft success offsetting their high salaried stars most notably OL.

[Soonerpeace]

(04-29-2023, 03:31 PM)Mgbrown66 Wrote: They drafted Boyd’s replacement. Notice they haven’t drafted Tee’s replacement? The bengals draft replacements a year early for those they are willing to replace.

Their draft speaks volumes.

And on Mixon/Trayveon and RT.

[Soonerpeace]

(04-29-2023, 03:28 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: I disagree.  Here is why:  Higgins isn't a #2 WR.  He is a #1.  A top 10 WR in the league.  That combination of him and Chase allows the offense to go cheaper on places like TE, and, hopefully, RB.  They made some great, affordable acquisitions on the offensive line (Karras, Cappa, Collins) and made one big move with Brown.

I just believe in this scoring league that favors offenses, having Tee and Ja'Marr together makes the Bengals unique.  The statement about making WRs better may be true (and TEs) but without enough time to throw, having those two  weapons helps Joe tremendously.  

Now that Burrow will have more time to throw, they could be absolutely lethal   

And I said that earlier too. With a top 10 OL our Mixon worries and TE are solved.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(04-29-2023, 03:28 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: I disagree.  Here is why:  Higgins isn't a #2 WR.  He is a #1.  A top 10 WR in the league.  That combination of him and Chase allows the offense to go cheaper on places like TE, and, hopefully, RB.  They made some great, affordable acquisitions on the offensive line (Karras, Cappa, Collins) and made one big move with Brown.

I just believe in this scoring league that favors offenses, having Tee and Ja'Marr together makes the Bengals unique.  The statement about making WRs better may be true (and TEs) but without enough time to throw, having those two  weapons helps Joe tremendously.  

Now that Burrow will have more time to throw, they could be absolutely lethal.  

On another team? Almost certainly. On this team? No, because he's not better than Chase. There's no two first places. There's first place and second place.

He's very good, but he's most certainly not a top-10 WR in the league. In no particular order...
Justin Jefferson
Tyreek Hill
Ja'Marr Chase
Devante Adams
Cooper Kupp
Stefon Diggs
AJ Brown
Mike Evans
CeeDee Lamb
Jaylen Waddle
DeAndre Hopkins

He's certainly top-20 or top-25, but honestly it starts getting reaaaal muddled after 10-ish with D Smith, Cooper, McLaurin, Higgins, St Brown, Olave, G Wilson, Lockett, Metcalf, Deebo, Moore, M Williams, K Allen and probably a couple more I am probably forgetting being on fairly even ground to where any order could be argued for and thus are pretty pointless to try to put in any order.

- - - - - - 

Going cheaper on other positions that already are cheaper like TE and RB isn't as much savings as going cheaper on a position where you're going to have to pay $25m/yr or more.

They would be unique because the only time paying 2 WRs top money has ever worked was the 2006 Colts, and the Colts teams before and after were notorious for not living up to potential. They didn't go to the SB any other time they had Peyton Manning, Marvin Harrison, and Reggie Wayne.

You know how you have even more time to throw? Rather than investing $55m/yr into 2 WRs, you invest $25m more into your OL and then your $55m/yr QB and $30m/yr WR will be able to dominate with support by lesser weapons around them. Lol.. it's going to keep working for now because they haven't had to start paying all 3, but once they do the rest of the team around them will noticeably drop in quality.