Grade The Draft

[Soonerpeace]

(05-07-2023, 09:41 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: 1 IOL injury (any of the 3) away from things getting real dicey. 

1 very good starting LT, 1 backup who may be an okay LT (Carman), and 0 guys we can count on to be a good starting RT.

Still not happy that Drew Sample is almost certainly going to be the starting TE for most of the year, too.

LMAO we could be the KC Chiefs settling on Donovan Smith ( at one time 65th out of 77 tackles by PFF late in the season and the most penalties ) or Wayna Morris. I watched Morris not so worth a crap for 2 years. Worst RT in 5 years at Oklahoma. And…. Praying Jawann Taylor can play left tackle. They’ve got problems. I feel good between Jonah, Carman, and Collins we’ll be fine. I think Volson takes a huge leap and Karras, Cappa, and Orlando will give us 3 very good OL. Drafting a rookie in the OL ahead of our first 4 picks doesn’t jive with me.

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

(05-07-2023, 08:00 AM)OSUfan Wrote: I find it hysterical that across the NFL the Bengals are being lauded for an excellent draft yet the majority of these boards are giving the draft a B and it is simply because the Bengals did not draft the players or positions that the individuals have determined were needed by the Bengals. Shows a real inability to look at the situation with perspective and to realize that the staff and ownership have a better grip on the needs of the team better than the fan does.

The Bengals pretty much went BPA across the board and added value selections in areas that needed depth and/or positions that could see player turnover in the next couple of seasons. Drafting as the Bengals did is how a team continues to weather free agency and cap restrictions to remain highly competitive year in and year out.

Bengals fans should start to embrace drafting at the bottom of each round moving forward and that is a very good thing.

I think some of it may be as you say, regarding individual posters. 

But I think the lack of A's may have other explanations. 

One, aside from the 6th round punter, Robbins, all our picks projectc as backups next year. Hard to give a draft an A when you pick 7 backups and a starting punter. Plus, we passed on the hometown kid who most people had as a super safe, can't miss TE prospect. A position of need. Kind of deflating for a lot of folk. 

Two, we did not land a HR guy. Wright, Forbes, Robinson, Kancey. Maybe even Gibbs or Kincaid. Singles & doubles screams B/B+. 

Lastly, we didn't draft or acquire anyone who would allow us to shed a high salary guy & make additional moves. RT or RB. 

[Soonerpeace]

I think the OL depth will be improved and overhauled

Ben Brown spent his rookie season on the IR, but looks like a sneaky pick for a potential (internal) IOL upgrade this season. I’d like to see him be more aggressive overall and have more control at the second level. However, he has a strong punch, solid base and good balance. pic.twitter.com/fn1gkrIWW1

— Parker Blake (@ParkerBlake60) May 3, 2023

[TecmoBengals]

(05-08-2023, 10:28 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: I think the OL depth will be improved and overhauled

Ben Brown spent his rookie season on the IR, but looks like a sneaky pick for a potential (internal) IOL upgrade this season. I’d like to see him be more aggressive overall and have more control at the second level. However, he has a strong punch, solid base and good balance. pic.twitter.com/fn1gkrIWW1

— Parker Blake (@ParkerBlake60) May 3, 2023

I totally forgot about Brown. I see a lot of online articles also hyping Jaxson Kirkland, OL as the UDFA most likely to make the team. I'm hopeful some of these guys emerge as solid backups or even develop into potential starters.

[Soonerpeace]

(05-08-2023, 11:12 AM)TecmoBengals Wrote: I totally forgot about Brown. I see a lot of online articles also hyping Jaxson Kirkland, OL as the UDFA most likely to make the team. I'm hopeful some of these guys emerge as solid backups or even develop into potential starters.

Darn was trying to find the other guy the other day. It was Kirkland. Thanks I think he’s got a great shot

[XenoMorph]

(05-08-2023, 12:37 AM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: I think some of it may be as you say, regarding individual posters. 

But I think the lack of A's may have other explanations. 

One, aside from the 6th round punter, Robbins, all our picks projectc as backups next year. Hard to give a draft an A when you pick 7 backups and a starting punter. Plus, we passed on the hometown kid who most people had as a super safe, can't miss TE prospect. A position of need. Kind of deflating for a lot of folk. 

Two, we did not land a HR guy. Wright, Forbes, Robinson, Kancey. Maybe even Gibbs or Kincaid. Singles & doubles screams B/B+. 

Lastly, we didn't draft or acquire anyone who would allow us to shed a high salary guy & make additional moves. RT or RB. 

True... But its always a good thing when you dont HAVE to start a rookie pick right away.    And the top 3 guys look like they will contribute right away one way or another

[XenoMorph]

I give it a B that can easily turn to an A...

But solid Depth and future draft. Some of these guys will fight for playing time right away. Some will be starters by next year.

[Burreaux]

Considering they’re drafting at the end of each round I’ll give them an A. With Hendrickson and Awuzie on the final year of their deal it gives them some insurance along with potential quality depth in year 1. Charlie Jones wasn’t someone I knew much about but he looks like a potential steal. Jordan Battle might not blow you away athletically but is a really good football player that made the leap from high school to college flawlessly.

Based off interviews with people within the organization it sounds like some of the fan favorites had some character/medical red flags. It’s hard to hold not drafting them against the organization. If Murphy and Turner live up to their potential this draft will be a home run.

[Whatever]

(05-08-2023, 12:37 AM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: I think some of it may be as you say, regarding individual posters. 

But I think the lack of A's may have other explanations. 

One, aside from the 6th round punter, Robbins, all our picks projectc as backups next year. Hard to give a draft an A when you pick 7 backups and a starting punter. Plus, we passed on the hometown kid who most people had as a super safe, can't miss TE prospect. A position of need. Kind of deflating for a lot of folk. 

Two, we did not land a HR guy. Wright, Forbes, Robinson, Kancey. Maybe even Gibbs or Kincaid. Singles & doubles screams B/B+. 

Lastly, we didn't draft or acquire anyone who would allow us to shed a high salary guy & make additional moves. RT or RB. 

Murphy was a home run pick.  He just wasn't a guy that was on a lot of people's radar.  

[Whatever]

(05-07-2023, 09:41 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: 1 IOL injury (any of the 3) away from things getting real dicey. 

1 very good starting LT, 1 backup who may be an okay LT (Carman), and 0 guys we can count on to be a good starting RT.

Still not happy that Drew Sample is almost certainly going to be the starting TE for most of the year, too.

Both Collins and Carman have experience in the NFL at G.  For all the flak Carman gets for his rookie season, he didn't allow a sack and graded slightly higher than Volson did last year.  I don't see the OL imploding if either of them has to play.  

Being realistic, you can't ever truly count on a rookie being able to come in and play at a capable level.  On top of that, this was a brutally bad OL class, particularly at T.  I personally can't fault the Bengals for not wanting to gamble on a class this bad.

[*Synric*]

(05-08-2023, 01:26 PM)Whatever Wrote: On top of that, this was a brutally bad OL class, particularly at T. 

Some context on this.. Both Matthew Bergeron and Tyler Steen were announced as Guards so that means there were no Offensive Tackles taken between Anton Harrison at 27 and Wanya Morris at 92.


Edit: The Chiefs after trading up to 92 and drafting Wanya Morris immediately went out and signed Donovan Smith lol.

[Whatever]

(05-08-2023, 02:01 PM)Synric Wrote: Some context on this.. Both Matthew Bergeron and Tyler Steen were announced as Guards so that means there were no Offensive Tackles taken between Anton Harrison at 27 and Wanya Morris at 92.


Edit: The Chiefs after trading up to 92 and drafting Wanya Morris immediately went out and signed Donovan Smith lol.

Even the top of the draft sucked at T.  You had 2 developmental traits based prospects, a guy many projected to G, and a pure RT with the worst run blocking profile on any T taken in the first since '15 per PFF.  

[Mike M (the other one)]

(05-08-2023, 11:43 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: True... But its always a good thing when you dont HAVE to start a rookie pick right away.    And the top 3 guys look like they will contribute right away one way or another

And this is the mindset people need to start adapting to.

This isn't a Swiss Cheese roster anymore. They have solid guys in every position, and the guys drafted now are being drafted to be groomed for starter spots for NEXT year. Get them in here, let them learn and get some experience. if they are good enough this year to replace someone then all the better for the Team.

The roster "could" use improvements in some spots like TE maybe, but things don't always fall your way in the draft. I'm sure if a TE they valued was there and the BPA was close enough they would have nabbed one. As far as I am concerned, it's still pretty much at the same level it was last year at this time and we did just fine.

[*ochocincos*]

(05-08-2023, 12:37 AM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: I think some of it may be as you say, regarding individual posters. 

But I think the lack of A's may have other explanations. 

One, aside from the 6th round punter, Robbins, all our picks projectc as backups next year. Hard to give a draft an A when you pick 7 backups and a starting punter. Plus, we passed on the hometown kid who most people had as a super safe, can't miss TE prospect. A position of need. Kind of deflating for a lot of folk. 

Two, we did not land a HR guy. Wright, Forbes, Robinson, Kancey. Maybe even Gibbs or Kincaid. Singles & doubles screams B/B+. 

Lastly, we didn't draft or acquire anyone who would allow us to shed a high salary guy & make additional moves. RT or RB. 

It comes down to need, I feel.
The most controversial picks were Murphy and Battle, which some (many?) fans felt weren't as big of needs compared to the likes of TE and DT.

Bengals have Hendrickson, Hubbard, and Ossai all under contract over the next two years. However, Reader and Tupou are set to hit FA after this season and the Bengals aren't getting as much pressure inside, so it seemed to make sense to get an interior guy over an edge.
I think people are more in favor of Murphy over Battle though because the Bengals could play Murphy or one of the other DEs inside to get pressure from all over.

Battle is probably the biggest head scratcher, especially knowing Darnell Washington was there and they chose to instead trade back just for a 6th round comp. And the Bengals signed Nick Scott as the starter for SS, which some thought was a good value signing.
Had Bengals selected Darnell Washington instead of Battle in 3rd round and not traded back to get that extra 6th rounder, I would almost assuredly say more fans on this board would have voted an A.
A punter could have been selected with the 7th rounder instead of another CB, or even picked one up as UDFA, which most punters are.

[3wt]

(05-08-2023, 06:28 PM)ochocincos Wrote: It comes down to need, I feel.
The most controversial picks were Murphy and Battle, which some (many?) fans felt weren't as big of needs compared to the likes of TE and DT.

Bengals have Hendrickson, Hubbard, and Ossai all under contract over the next two years. However, Reader and Tupou are set to hit FA after this season and the Bengals aren't getting as much pressure inside, so it seemed to make sense to get an interior guy over an edge.
I think people are more in favor of Murphy over Battle though because the Bengals could play Murphy or one of the other DEs inside to get pressure from all over.

Battle is probably the biggest head scratcher, especially knowing Darnell Washington was there and they chose to instead trade back just for a 6th round comp. And the Bengals signed Nick Scott as the starter for SS, which some thought was a good value signing.
Had Bengals selected Darnell Washington instead of Battle in 3rd round and not traded back to get that extra 6th rounder, I would almost assuredly say more fans on this board would have voted an A.
A punter could have been selected with the 7th rounder instead of another CB, or even picked one up as UDFA, which most punters are.

This is kind of how I see it.  I hear that the TE is not really our most used position and that we had Irv Smith and  Drew Sample as our two projected starters that would perform in the context of an 11 man personnel based offense.   In other words our bread and butter is wide receivers.

And I also understand that Washington had issues - primarily with his knees and some rawness in his route running.

1) I think of Gronk.   He had major back issues before being drafted and he had a relatively long career.  And Pittsburgh obviously felt like the third round was a safe enought place to take him
2) I think of the limitations of our offense - particularly against defenses like Baltimore's, where we just did not seem to have the ability to grind it down the field.   A guy like Washington is such a devastating blocker and he makes really tough contested catches.  He is a weapon in the running game, third down and end zone packages.   Combined with our other skill players it would have made us very difficult to stop and would have helped us to control the clock to our advantage.

Just feels like it gives our offense a dimension it has not had and makes us even harder to defend.

I really like all our picks, but the Washington pick would have been too hard for me to pass up.

[*ochocincos*]

(05-09-2023, 01:27 PM)3wt Wrote: This is kind of how I see it.  I hear that the TE is not really our most used position and that we had Irv Smith and  Drew Sample as our two projected starters that would perform in the context of an 11 man personnel based offense.   In other words our bread and butter is wide receivers.

And I also understand that Washington had issues - primarily with his knees and some rawness in his route running.

1) I think of Gronk.   He had major back issues before being drafted and he had a relatively long career.  And Pittsburgh obviously felt like the third round was a safe enought place to take him
2) I think of the limitations of our offense - particularly against defenses like Baltimore's, where we just did not seem to have the ability to grind it down the field.   A guy like Washington is such a devastating blocker and he makes really tough contested catches.  He is a weapon in the running game, third down and end zone packages.   Combined with our other skill players it would have made us very difficult to stop and would have helped us to control the clock to our advantage.

Just feels like it gives our offense a dimension it has not had and makes us even harder to defend.

I really like all our picks, but the Washington pick would have been too hard for me to pass up.

Sure, there is some rawness to Washington as a pass catcher, but the blocking is likely better than anyone the Bengals have right now. 
And I can't see him being any worse in the passing game than Drew Sample.

If there was an injury concern with Washington, I wouldn't have expected the Steelers to take him.
As much as I don't like them, they are usually pretty solid when it comes to evaluating talent.
They may not be great at every pick, but they always seem to get some kind of decency.
Steelers didn't have an immediate need at TE given they had Freiermuth, so I think they took Washington believing he could be something special.

For the Bengals' sake, I hope the decision to trade back and the Steelers ultimately taking him right after doesn't bite them.

[3wt]

(05-09-2023, 01:33 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Sure, there is some rawness to Washington as a pass catcher, but the blocking is likely better than anyone the Bengals have right now. 
And I can't see him being any worse in the passing game than Drew Sample.

If there was an injury concern with Washington, I wouldn't have expected the Steelers to take him.
As much as I don't like them, they are usually pretty solid when it comes to evaluating talent.
They may not be great at every pick, but they always seem to get some kind of decency.
Steelers didn't have an immediate need at TE given they had Freiermuth, so I think they took Washington believing he could be something special.

For the Bengals' sake, I hope the decision to trade back and the Steelers ultimately taking him right after doesn't bite them.

Yeah, that was a secondary concern for me.  It felt like it was a very acceptable risk in round three.   I love Battle and I think we got a steal there.  So I don't want to throw shade at people who know so much more than me.

But I feel that everyone in the league - and especially the media - is over preoccupied with the value of the picks: are they a reach or a steal.  And that is truly a legitimate factor for sure!

But sometimes that becomes subsidiary to the team you are putting together.  The Lions were roundhoused for taking Gibbs so early, but that is going to have a profound impact on their offense.

And I understand too that we are not an offense like the Steelers.   But I LOVE the potential for having a guy who can effectively block a defensive end (which Sample cannot do reliably) win contested balls that none of our personnel can do - even Higgins.   Just unstoppable in significant applications and multiple enough that a defense cannot know for sure you are doing.

Other than that, I love our draft and am pumped to see how it changes our game.

[Whatever]

(05-09-2023, 01:33 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Sure, there is some rawness to Washington as a pass catcher, but the blocking is likely better than anyone the Bengals have right now. 
And I can't see him being any worse in the passing game than Drew Sample.

If there was an injury concern with Washington, I wouldn't have expected the Steelers to take him.
As much as I don't like them, they are usually pretty solid when it comes to evaluating talent.
They may not be great at every pick, but they always seem to get some kind of decency.
Steelers didn't have an immediate need at TE given they had Freiermuth, so I think they took Washington believing he could be something special.

For the Bengals' sake, I hope the decision to trade back and the Steelers ultimately taking him right after doesn't bite them.

Washington is actually very raw as both a receiver and a blocker.  He won with size and power at the college level on the blocking side, but lots of guys win with that in college and are then in trouble against NFL strength and speed.  

He's basically a traits based prospects that will need his technique rebuilt in both blocking as as a receiver, then has injury flags on top of it.  He's a lot more of a gamble than I think many realize.

I don't think the Bengals really prioritize jump ball ability with their TE's.  They want their TE's to generate separation and create an easy throw for Joe.  If Joe's throwing into tight coverage, he's probably throwing it to Chase or Higgins.  

[*ochocincos*]

(05-11-2023, 05:37 PM)Whatever Wrote: Washington is actually very raw as both a receiver and a blocker.  He won with size and power at the college level on the blocking side, but lots of guys win with that in college and are then in trouble against NFL strength and speed.  

He's basically a traits based prospects that will need his technique rebuilt in both blocking as as a receiver, then has injury flags on top of it.  He's a lot more of a gamble than I think many realize.

I don't think the Bengals really prioritize jump ball ability with their TE's.  They want their TE's to generate separation and create an easy throw for Joe.  If Joe's throwing into tight coverage, he's probably throwing it to Chase or Higgins.  

Where did you hear Washington is very raw as a blocker?
I had not heard that anywhere.

[Soonerpeace]

(05-11-2023, 05:56 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Where did you hear Washington is very raw as a blocker?
I had not heard that anywhere.

Seriously with a hundred opinions out there easily someone could have said it.